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 Post subject: Re: Voila Lev
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:06 pm 
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Answer the questions in the concrete. Historically, it's clear that those who think, and who act upon, that suppressing the working class in the "name" of revolution is always an option, have done nothing to advance the struggle for socialism. Is there historical evidence to the contrary?

That's another concrete question, so I'm not awaiting an answer from either one of you 4th internationalists.

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 Post subject: Re: Voila Lev
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:33 am 
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S.Artesian wrote:
Answer the questions in the concrete. Historically, it's clear that those who think, and who act upon, that suppressing the working class in the "name" of revolution is always an option, have done nothing to advance the struggle for socialism. Is there historical evidence to the contrary?

That's another concrete question, so I'm not awaiting an answer from either one of you 4th internationalists.


Why are you so afraid of answering a simple question that you keep answering questions nobody asked you? Nobody asked you about suppressing THE working class as a whole. The question was simple: is suppression of segments of the working class, in principle, not an option after the smashing of the bourgeois state? In your latest answer, it seems you are tending to a "no," but it's still not clear because you are addressing a question -- whether to suppress the entire class (including Bolsheviks workers?) -- that nobody asked. It's impossible to have a productive discussion with somebody, political or otherwise, when that person is deliberately being obtuse and refusing to answer simple questions about their positions and principles.


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 Post subject: Re: Voila Lev
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:59 am 
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Not afraid of anything. Your question is an example of ignorance. We are not talking incidents, we are talking POLICY, PROGRAM; not individual but collective, SOCIAL.

Why are you so afraid of dealing with the manifestations of your "theoretical question" in the concrete? Where has a "workers' state" repressing workers as a class, that is to say suppressing workers organizations, advanced socialist revolution?

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 Post subject: Re: Voila Lev
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:04 am 
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Yes, we are talking program. And the question is whether you'd raise "no violence against workers" to a programmatic principle in the same way that, say, "the political independence of the working class" (not giving political support to bourgeois parties in elections, etc.) was raised to a programmatic principle by the Bolsheviks. You keep dodging this question and wanting to jump straight into concrete episodes of repression, but as I said earlier, it's impossible to have a decent discussion about the concrete without clarifying what principles you're drawing from in discussing it. Because it would literally just consist of you bitching about Bolsheviks suppressing workers here and there. This seems to be what your entire purpose is in the discussion, which is why you don't want to answer a question that might turn the discussion into something more.

Your complaining about Bolshevik repression just raises the question, were these episodes of suppression unacceptable because it's the suppression of workers, and ALL suppression of ANY workers after a revolution is, in principle, unacceptable? Or is there some politico-strategic reason that makes the specific episode of suppression unacceptable, even while other episodes might be acceptable? It's unclear how to even approach such questions categorically until we receive clarification on what your starting principles are on these issues.

The discussion cannot continue if you refuse to participate by refusing to answer basic questions about your position. That's really all I have to say about the matter. It says a lot about the confidence you have in your own political principles that you refuse to clarify in a discussion what they are.


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 Post subject: Re: Voila Lev
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:31 am 
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If I refuse? I've answered the issues about militarization of labor, pointing out that it is categorically antithetical to the basis for social revolution.

Right the discussion will not continue until you answer the questions asked repeatedly: do support the Bolshevik policies of repressing strikes, terminating the soviets, etc. which culminated in the suppression of Kronstadt.

Marxist analysis is first and foremost, historical, concrete, social-- analyzing what happens, why it happens, and the relation of those events, policies, programs, to the material conditions of the reproduction of labor. If you will not or cannot answer the questions in the concrete-- or the single question: Did the Bolshevik actions advance the proletariat as the ruling class during a "period of transition" or not?-- then in need there is no reason to discuss anything. There is no discussion a Marxist can have with someone who evades the concrete, class, social results of "policies" posed as if they were theoretical abstractions.

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