RedMarx

A Forum
It is currently Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:35 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]



Welcome


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The Service Economy
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:20 am 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:10 pm
Posts: 413
Has thanked: 26 time
Have thanks: 31 time
Quote:
, then they both end up producing the same amount of value and therefore the same amount of surplus-value.


surplus labour isn't the same as surplus-value
Noa has been thanked by:


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: The Service Economy
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:59 am 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:15 am
Posts: 560
Has thanked: 139 time
Have thanks: 447 time
Maybe I was too hasty in dismissing both of your arguments. I was reading through Theories of Surplus-Value and it contains the following, very relevant passage:

Marx, ToSV Chapter 4 wrote:
An actor, for example, or even a clown, according to this definition, is a productive labourer if he works in the service of a capitalist (an entrepreneur) to whom he returns more labour than he receives from him in the form of wages; while a jobbing tailor who comes to the capitalist’s house and patches his trousers for him, producing a mere use-value for him, is an unproductive labourer. The former’s labour is exchanged with capital, the latter’s with revenue.

[...]

A writer is a productive labourer not in so far as he produces ideas, but in so far as he enriches the publisher who publishes his works, or if he is a wage-labourer for a capitalist.

The use-value of the commodity in which the labour of a productive worker is embodied may be of the most futile kind. The material characteristics are in no way linked with its nature which on the contrary is only the expression of a definite social relation of production. It is a definition of labour which is derived not from its content or its result, but from its particular social form.

[...]

The determinate material form of the labour, and therefore of its product, in itself has nothing to do with this distinction between productive and unproductive labour. For example, the cooks and waiters in a public hotel are productive labourers, in so far as their labour is transformed into capital for the proprietor of the hotel.


It seems that Noa is correct about how to distinguish between productive and unproductive labour.

The question still remains for me - what is the source of the tendency of the economy towards an increase in service sector work?

_________________
"The death of the poor man is the worst eventuality for the creditor. It is the death of his capital together with the interest."
- Marx, Comments on James Mill -

"Citizen Weston illustrated his theory by telling you that a bowl contains a certain quantity of soup, to be eaten by a certain number of persons, an increase in the broadness of the spoons would produce no increase in the amount of soup. He must allow me to find this illustration rather spoony."
- Marx, Value, Price and profit -


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Service Economy
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:28 am 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:10 pm
Posts: 413
Has thanked: 26 time
Have thanks: 31 time
seems this is a classic: Victor R. Fuchs (1968), The service economy: http://papers.nber.org/books/fuch68-1

I guess among Marxisant theorists they frame it as immaterial labour or (inappropriately) use the concept of real subsumption of capital. In sociology you surely have numerous titles for it: post-fordism, information society, blah blah.
Noa has been thanked by:


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Service Economy
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:36 pm 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:15 am
Posts: 560
Has thanked: 139 time
Have thanks: 447 time
I just started plodding my way through Volume 2. This is a relevant passage of the first chapter:

Marx, Capital Vol2 wrote:
There are however particular branches of industry in which the product of the production process is not a new objective product; a commodity.

...what the transport industry sells is the actual change of place itself. The useful effect produced is inseparably connected with the transport process... The useful effect can only be consumed during the production process; it does not exist as a thing of use distinct from this process, a thing which functions as an article of commerce and circulates as a commodity only after it's production. However the exchange-value of this useful effect is still determined, like that of any other commodity, by the value of the elements of production used up in it (labour-power and means of production), plus the surplus-value created by the surplus labour of the workers occupied in the transport industry.


He then includes the following formula:
Spoiler:
Image


Indicating that in the communications industry, capital is transformed directly into money capital during the production process, rather than into commodity capital which has to then be converted into money capital in a separate transaction.

This seems like a good basis to begin discussion of 'immaterial' labour.

_________________
"The death of the poor man is the worst eventuality for the creditor. It is the death of his capital together with the interest."
- Marx, Comments on James Mill -

"Citizen Weston illustrated his theory by telling you that a bowl contains a certain quantity of soup, to be eaten by a certain number of persons, an increase in the broadness of the spoons would produce no increase in the amount of soup. He must allow me to find this illustration rather spoony."
- Marx, Value, Price and profit -


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Service Economy
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:39 am 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:15 am
Posts: 560
Has thanked: 139 time
Have thanks: 447 time
Since the original premise of this thread was, admittedly, bad, I'm going to atone by turning it into a dumping ground for Marx quotes of relevance that I can look back on later.

Marx, Capital Vol 2 wrote:
The persistence of commodity capital as a commodity stock requires buildings, stores, containers, warehouse, i.e. an outlay of constant capital; it equally requires that payment be made for the labour-power employed in placing the commodities in their containers...

...this outlay has the same effect as a reduction in the productivity of labour, so that a greater quantity of capital and labour is required to obtain a specific useful effect.

...The use-value is not increased or raised; on the contrary, it declines. But it's decline is restricted, and it itself is conserved. The value that is advanced and exists in the commodity is also not increased here. But new labour, both objectified and living, is added to it.


The basic gist of the passage it seems to me is, the capital and labour involved in the transportation and storage of goods is productive of new value, insofar as it preserves the use-value of a commodity that would have otherwise decayed. This doesn't directly increase the value of the product, but it does have the same effect as a reduction in productivity (which is, per Volume 1, a reduction in relative surplus-value).

Our analysis of the retail sector needs to include elements of this, insofar as retail involves the mass transportation and preservation of commodities.

_________________
"The death of the poor man is the worst eventuality for the creditor. It is the death of his capital together with the interest."
- Marx, Comments on James Mill -

"Citizen Weston illustrated his theory by telling you that a bowl contains a certain quantity of soup, to be eaten by a certain number of persons, an increase in the broadness of the spoons would produce no increase in the amount of soup. He must allow me to find this illustration rather spoony."
- Marx, Value, Price and profit -


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Service Economy
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 4:28 pm 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:13 pm
Posts: 1760
Has thanked: 275 time
Have thanks: 572 time
Noa wrote:
Quote:
the worker will still yield a surplus value because they are working above and beyond what is necessary for them to replace the value of their wage.


I had assumed that the individual cleaner earns the same as the wage of the cleaning company. If they start earning a profit then they either spend it on consumption or soon they will start hiring for the launch of their own cleaning company.


If the individual cleaner earns the same wage as a wage-worker for the cleaning company then they have no social existence because they are unable to replace their constant capital as it is used. If they ARE able to replace their constant capital as it is used up then they are a member of the petty-bourgeoisie.

This applies particularly to the jobbing tailor that Marx mentions in the quote Zanny provided from the ToSV where the jobbing tailor was part of a diminishing class.

_________________
Creation isn't beautiful. You inspire the ugliest things.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Service Economy
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:11 am 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:10 pm
Posts: 413
Has thanked: 26 time
Have thanks: 31 time
The individual cleaner usually doesn't have constant capital, the cleaning material is provided by the resident.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Service Economy
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:38 pm 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:13 pm
Posts: 1760
Has thanked: 275 time
Have thanks: 572 time
Noa wrote:
The individual cleaner usually doesn't have constant capital, the cleaning material is provided by the resident.


Ah so like servants, I get you now.

_________________
Creation isn't beautiful. You inspire the ugliest things.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Donate Now
Donate Now



Hosted by © 2017 FreeForums.org | Create a free forum | Powered by phpBB
About FreeForums | Legal | Advertise Here | Investors | Contact FreeForums.org
Report Violation

Design By Poker Bandits  

suspicion-preferred