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 Post subject: Split from 'Marxism for noobs'
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Fucking hell, do not suggest Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution, unless boredom and bureaucratic ideology have since become synopsis with revolutionary class consciousness.

Soboul, however, is a bit more interesting. Not really a horribly great introduction to modern Marxist theory, but the spirit it encapsulates is quite close to the basic mark. Also makes for a very engaging read, but that's more personal commentary than anything else.

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 Post subject: Re: Marxism for noobs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:43 am 
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thesadmafioso wrote:
Fucking hell, do not suggest Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution, unless boredom and bureaucratic ideology have since become synopsis with revolutionary class consciousness.

Soboul, however, is a bit more interesting. Not really a horribly great introduction to modern Marxist theory, but the spirit it encapsulates is quite close to the basic mark. Also makes for a very engaging read, but that's more personal commentary than anything else.


Fucking hell nothing. Trotsky's History is one of the great works of historical materialism. Boring? WTF? You simply do not know what you are talking about. You prattle on and on about "critical consciousness" and how the proletariat is capable of real intellectual and creative endeavor-- yet you don't think workers can extract the real, revolutionary content, display a critical consciousness when reading a history of what remains a seminal moment in class struggle from one of the leaders of that struggle?

You come across as nothing but a poser.

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 Post subject: Re: Marxism for noobs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:06 am 
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I have no intention of arguing with TSM about Trotsky.

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 Post subject: Re: Marxism for noobs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:43 am 
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[quote="TFM"]You're a parody of yourself.


Yes, because I didn't suggest a 1000 page history of the Russian Revolution and actually opted for a critical theoretical production aimed at developments in capitalism relevant to this and the last century, how terribly laughable that must be.

Have you actually tried to go through History of the Russian Revolution page for page? The piece is utterly worthless by any modern or contemporary standard of theoretical production, more or less consistent in its defense of all the scientific niceties one would expect from a slightly more charged disciple of Kautsky, there is very little in the work considerable within the terms of historical materialism.

[quote="Искра"]TSM stop trolling. I'm asking serious question here and there's no need for you to turn it into one of your immature petty bourgeois shitstorms about yourself.

So, the 3 volume History of the Russian Revolution is a legitimate answer, but 100 or so pages of diverse, expansive, and exceedingly relevant/cutting critical theory is a troll answer.

**** off.

[quote="S.Artesian"]Fucking hell nothing. Trotsky's History is one of the great works of historical materialism. Boring? WTF? You simply do not know what you are talking about. You prattle on and on about "critical consciousness" and how the proletariat is capable of real intellectual and creative endeavor-- yet you don't think workers can extract the real, revolutionary content, display a critical consciousness when reading a history of what remains a seminal moment in class struggle from one of the leaders of that struggle?

You come across as nothing but a poser.

I'm sure they could handle Trotsky's old tome, I just can't see why they would very well have to bother with the thing. It's little more than a masturbatory love letter to Bolshevism, tailoring the conscious memory of history to poorly concealed ideological parameters stemming from a distorted support for the centralized spectacle of the CCCP. It's nothing to marvel at from a historical perspective, and it's certainly of notable suspect with regard to its dependency upon the spectacular constructions present in the production of the false consciousness of time, of images which create only a frozen depiction of history. Trotsky does as much under the veil of dialectical/historical materialism, certainly, but you really have to question someone who applies the notion of dialectical synthesis to the establishment of dictatorial party reign over capitalist social relations of production and of a society of the commodity's unchallenged dominance.

As much amounts to nothing beyond a glimmering chimera of historical thought, posing about in all the contradictory attire so well known to the history of Marxism distorted as ideology.

You come across as little more than a hack left-communist with deterministic ideology and a lingering affection for the 19th century. I'll take my situationist pretensions over as much.

[quote="Искра"]I hope this won't now become of topic about Trotsky and TSM... The reason why I'd avoid such stuff is because they are not really relevant today in sense of giving them to some young worker guy who's interested in Marxism. I think that such literature comes later when person decided to go deeper and shows some interest for more stuff.

Why the **** are you bitching about my shot against Trotsky then, precisely? This is more or less exactly what I initially said of Trotsky.
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 Post subject: Re: Marxism for noobs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:20 am 
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You are certainly welcome to your situationist pretensions. And that is exactly what they are. The comrade asked for works of introduction to Marxist analysis, and you offer 1 single work which says not a word about the concrete, specific organization of the social relations of production, nothing about how class is defined, how classes are reproduced.

"Hack left-communist"? I've been called worse things.... and by better people.

You have successfully categorized yourself as the Rosa Lichtenstein of "avant-garde" poseur radicalism.

Now you **** off *******. The comrade asked for works that could serve as an introduction to Marxist analysis. If you have nothing to contribute, and since your once and future offering is always going to be-- like Rosa's "anti-dialectics"-- SOTS, you really don't have to say anything-- ever again-- because we can fill in the blanks for you. And you are a blank.

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 Post subject: Re: Marxism for noobs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:26 am 
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Marxism for noobs.

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 Post subject: Re: Marxism for noobs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:44 am 
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I'm sure TSM would recommend that over the History of the Russian Revolution.

Fucking amazing, that in the entire oeuvre of Marxist analysis, only SOTS qualifies for providing insight into the principles, categories, relations, social classes that make up that analysis, suitable for those beginning their inquiry.

Krist on a crutch, even the EPM, or the Grundrisse would have been an honest answer to the honest question. Instead we received an ideological answer-- SOTS--which, as ideological answers are and must be, is completely irrelevant.

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 Post subject: Re: Marxism for noobs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:47 am 
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S.Artesian wrote:
I'm sure TSM would recommend that over the History of the Russian Revolution.

Fucking amazing, that in the entire oeuvre of Marxist analysis, only SOTS qualifies for providing insight into the principles, categories, relations, social classes that make up that analysis, suitable for those beginning their inquiry.


He says after a list of supplementary sources are provided to my initial comment...

Doesn't the site have a warning or something that it shows you if a post has since been prepared before your own?

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 Post subject: Re: Marxism for noobs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:02 pm 
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[quote="thesadmafioso"]

The pro-situ comment was made with a tremendous degree of intentional detachment, irony if you will, so as to outline how utterly bankrupt your own ideological tendencies are.


Intentional detachment, irony? FFS, do you make this **** up, or does someone write it down for you. I have zero ideological tendencies. I do have a great appreciation for historical materialism, and Trotsky's history, his actual history of the determinants and the course of the RR is not outweighed nor negated by his Bolshevism.

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And yes, by speaking to both of the examples which you've provided and assessing their contents in the most detail of anyone since involved in this topic, I've outlined a singular pseudo-avant garde niche for myself, that makes a great deal of sense indeed.


No, you didn't provide any detail, you provided in your personal tastes regarding two examples, remaining not so curiously silent re Mariategui, probably because Debord never mentions him, or is it because he wasn't French?

Quote:
Since Debord is apparently disdainful to this crowd, I suppose I could amend my selections to involve Lefebvre (selections of his essays are easy enough to come across and contain very important commentaries on the earlier developments of French Hegelian Marxism), Vaneigem (coming off of the previously mentioned critique of everyday life, the revolution of as much is a natural progression), Lukacs (most of the essays in HOCC are quite short), Pannekoek (Workers Councils is the best example to come to mind), and Korsch (Karl Marx and some of his essays on dialectics are all good works of multitude).


You could have, but you did not. Because such other selections are mere afterthoughts to someone who essentially has established a fetish around a single pamphlet.

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There you have it, Hegelian Marxism without Debord, now will you shut the **** up about this niche ********? I use Debord more often than not as he combines all of the above mentioned in his work, so he is simply the most concise and expansive source to refer to in these scenarios. Also, for introductory purposes, he entails a great deal less reading and background study, which, in this scenario, one might consider to have some value.


You simply don't know what you're talking about. SOTS requires less background study to make sense of it? That's hilarious. And pathetic.

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I recall some retrograde **** on this site saying to me that I was quite diluted in my thinking if I thought workers would ever care to act in a revolutionary manner which challenged any totality known to our era, well, to amend this slightly, you're fucked if you think that the negation of modern capitalism is going to have anything to do with the history of state capitalism and its various different ideological charlatans.


Newsflash, History of the Russian Revolution is not the history of state capitalism, but the history of a social revolution. There's any number of works on the Mexican Revolution, US Reconstruction, Bolivia under the MNR, China, Spain that demonstrate the principles of Marxist historical analysis-- just so happens that the Russian Revolution was the one where the proletariat actually created the organizations that took power-- although I'm sure you think October 1917 was just another episode in the serial spectacle.

I don't know who that retrograde **** was, but I do know a poser when I run across one.
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 Post subject: Re: Marxism for noobs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:08 pm 
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TSM thank you for turning this thread into another thread about yourself. I'm sorry for you if you don't get enough attention in your life, but please open another threads for your rants.

Now Admins, please do some moderation and gulagisation of certain posts.

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