RedMarx

A Forum
It is currently Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:55 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]



Welcome


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:58 pm 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:19 pm
Posts: 438
Location: North Carolina, US
Has thanked: 176 time
Have thanks: 52 time
The subject is homosexuality and Marxism. Historically the two have had an uneasy relationship. Marx and Engels themselves had bad views on homosexuals, while this is understandable because it was only visible in the Bourgeosie and Petit-Bourgeousie classes, there were other socialists at the time that had better views on the subject. Then during the Russian Revolution homosexuality was decriminalized, but treated solely as a mental illness and many had to be admitted to psychiatric facilities. Lenin's personal views were also quite astounding.

Now I understand that things are much different now, but it is uncomfortable for me to look at this aspect of history because I am gay. Now this does not mean that I will compromise my political position as a Marxist. But it would be nice if we could shed some light on the topic. BTW I despise identity politics and "pride" BS.

_________________
"In the name of a greater civilization, we curse those who for the sake of their ambitious dreams, brought about the massacre of so many young lives. No matter how brutal the crime, you will always get glorification of its heroism and tradition from the eunuchs of bourgeois culture." - Amadeo Bordiga


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:20 pm 
Online
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:13 pm
Posts: 1760
Has thanked: 275 time
Have thanks: 572 time
Nobody here is going to oppose homosexuality or whatever, you're correct in noting that commies of old were restricted by their material conditions and came to wrong conclusions because of it.

We know better now.

btw banned for being gay.

_________________
Creation isn't beautiful. You inspire the ugliest things.
Broletariat has been thanked by:


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:41 pm 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:19 pm
Posts: 438
Location: North Carolina, US
Has thanked: 176 time
Have thanks: 52 time
Broletariat wrote:
Nobody here is going to oppose homosexuality or whatever, you're correct in noting that commies of old were restricted by their material conditions and came to wrong conclusions because of it.

We know better now.

btw banned for being gay.


Lol! I know that things are better now, but I've been unable to find out why they came to these conculusions. I guess it was because there was this visible group of petit bourgeois artisans that were and Marx and Lenin thought it was a Bourgeosie creation. But I guess there was no scientific research at the time. Whatever it was, capitalism is to blame.

_________________
"In the name of a greater civilization, we curse those who for the sake of their ambitious dreams, brought about the massacre of so many young lives. No matter how brutal the crime, you will always get glorification of its heroism and tradition from the eunuchs of bourgeois culture." - Amadeo Bordiga


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:10 pm 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:55 pm
Posts: 1315
Has thanked: 398 time
Have thanks: 938 time
Whom I sleep with, or you sleep with is nobody's business but mine and the 6 or 7 people in bed with me at any given time.

_________________
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it?
That's what it is to live the life of a slave.
S.Artesian has been thanked by:


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:35 pm 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:19 pm
Posts: 438
Location: North Carolina, US
Has thanked: 176 time
Have thanks: 52 time
http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2010/6/gay-oppression

The ICC has written some good articles on the subject. I did some more research on the history and I found that Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknect had good views regarding the subject. As I said before those in the Bourgeosie classes could get away with being homosexual. So this would lead to the idea of it being "Bourgeosie decadence."

I also found this, which I found interesting:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1920/lenin/zetkin1.htm

_________________
"In the name of a greater civilization, we curse those who for the sake of their ambitious dreams, brought about the massacre of so many young lives. No matter how brutal the crime, you will always get glorification of its heroism and tradition from the eunuchs of bourgeois culture." - Amadeo Bordiga


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:46 pm 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:33 am
Posts: 306
Location: I-5
Has thanked: 224 time
Have thanks: 346 time
[quote2="jas4500"]Then during the Russian Revolution homosexuality was decriminalized, but treated solely as a mental illness and many had to be admitted to psychiatric facilities.[/quote2]
This is interesting. Do you have any information about the bolded part? I hadnt heard it before.
[quote2="jas4500"]Now I understand that things are much different now, but it is uncomfortable for me to look at this aspect of history because I am gay. Now this does not mean that I will compromise my political position as a Marxist. But it would be nice if we could shed some light on the topic. BTW I despise identity politics and "pride" BS.[/quote2]

I'm not totally sure what you are asking here. Obviously, a century ago, a lot of 'western' and Russian communists had reactionary views about same *** relationships. I suspect a lot of it was to do with more ingrained ideas about masculinity etc. and people in general being more sexually repressed, but probably also because most people at that time just had virtually no exposure to it at all. I imagine in some places these prejudices are still prevalent among communists. You said you live in the US, though, and here--maybe with the exception of, like, some Hoxhaists and college Maoists or something lol--there isn't a problem with homophobia among leftists at all. So you really don't have anything to worry about in that regard. What I think is actually a much more 'real' problem is the prevalence of '*****' identity politics, these ridiculous ideas about 'gay genes' and 'being born that way!!1' that people on the left seem to have mindlessly taken up, and the construction/reinforcement of all these silly subcultural identities that are supposed to correspond to peoples' personal sexual preferences/relationships.

Like I said though, I am not completely sure if this is even what you are asking, so maybe you can clarify.
nine has been thanked by:


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:49 pm 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:33 am
Posts: 306
Location: I-5
Has thanked: 224 time
Have thanks: 346 time
Also, I really doubt that most of the known instances of same *** relationships at that time were among people who were capitalists (your idea that this is the reason why some idiots called it 'bourgeois decadence'}. From everything I have read, I think it was much more prevalent among the intelligentsia.
nine has been thanked by:


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:44 pm 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:19 pm
Posts: 438
Location: North Carolina, US
Has thanked: 176 time
Have thanks: 52 time
I think what I was trying to ask was, why things were the way they were back then. But that question has pretty much been answered.

Quote:
What I think is actually a much more 'real' problem is the prevalence of '*****' identity politics, these ridiculous ideas about 'gay genes' and 'being born that way!!1'


You're definetly right about this!

About the bold part, I could be wrong because there was a lot of conflicting information, but I just did a google search. I know for sure that it was decriminalized in 1917-1933, some less reliable sources said that it was the reactionary Kadets that pushed for it in the constituent assembly, but more reliable sources seemed to point at the Bolsheviks. Whether people had to go to psychiatric institutions or not, I'm still not quite sure on that either because there is a lot of conflicting reports on that too. Information is quite scarce on the subject.

_________________
"In the name of a greater civilization, we curse those who for the sake of their ambitious dreams, brought about the massacre of so many young lives. No matter how brutal the crime, you will always get glorification of its heroism and tradition from the eunuchs of bourgeois culture." - Amadeo Bordiga


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:48 am 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:19 pm
Posts: 438
Location: North Carolina, US
Has thanked: 176 time
Have thanks: 52 time
[quote="thefinalmarch"][quote="nine"]What I think is actually a much more 'real' problem is the prevalence of '*****' identity politics, these ridiculous ideas about 'gay genes' and 'being born that way!!1' that people on the left seem to have mindlessly taken up

As far as I'm aware, I don't think a genetic or otherwise biological relationship to same-*** attraction has been conclusively proved or disproved, so I don't think we can throw that hypothesis out the window just yet.

Identity politics are a crock of ****, though. Maybe it's the pervasive liberalism inherent in identity politics, or maybe it's just that I don't think human sexuality should be reduced to a parade float, but ***** "pride" is something that has always really irked me — and I'm bisexual myself.

I think ***** Identity politics are just a liberal Bourgeousie plot to create ridiculous subcultures, over over a sexual preference. I'm with TFM. There are many hypothesis out there, in my psychology class we were talking about one that involved having different smell preferences, to pheremones. But who knows? I know the whole gay gene thing was phony though.
_________________
"In the name of a greater civilization, we curse those who for the sake of their ambitious dreams, brought about the massacre of so many young lives. No matter how brutal the crime, you will always get glorification of its heroism and tradition from the eunuchs of bourgeois culture." - Amadeo Bordiga


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:30 am 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:26 pm
Posts: 371
Has thanked: 24 time
Have thanks: 105 time
[quote="nine"][quote2="jas4500"]Then during the Russian Revolution homosexuality was decriminalized, but treated solely as a mental illness and many had to be admitted to psychiatric facilities.[/quote2]
This is interesting. Do you have any information about the bolded part? I hadnt heard it before.
[quote2="jas4500"]Now I understand that things are much different now, but it is uncomfortable for me to look at this aspect of history because I am gay. Now this does not mean that I will compromise my political position as a Marxist. But it would be nice if we could shed some light on the topic. BTW I despise identity politics and "pride" BS.[/quote2]

I'm not totally sure what you are asking here. Obviously, a century ago, a lot of 'western' and Russian communists had reactionary views about same *** relationships. I suspect a lot of it was to do with more ingrained ideas about masculinity etc. and people in general being more sexually repressed, but probably also because most people at that time just had virtually no exposure to it at all. I imagine in some places these prejudices are still prevalent among communists. You said you live in the US, though, and here--maybe with the exception of, like, some Hoxhaists and college Maoists or something lol--there isn't a problem with homophobia among leftists at all. So you really don't have anything to worry about in that regard. What I think is actually a much more 'real' problem is the prevalence of '*****' identity politics, these ridiculous ideas about 'gay genes' and 'being born that way!!1' that people on the left seem to have mindlessly taken up, and the construction/reinforcement of all these silly subcultural identities that are supposed to correspond to peoples' personal sexual preferences/relationships.

Like I said though, I am not completely sure if this is even what you are asking, so maybe you can clarify.


Not wanting to turn this in a secretary debate, but neither Hoxhaists or Maoists are homophobic. Of course, there are individual exceptions in every group (although I doubt you can find many), but in general Marxist-Leninist are never against homosexuality. I remember reading a book about the maoist-scene in the Netherlands and a novel that someone wrote about his time in the Maoist movement back then. There were Maoist groups where non-homosexuals weren't even allowed, and I haven't found any sign of homophobic views in these groups.
Now, I can't deny that in Albania and the Soviet Union homosexuality was banned. But, this is in general seen as a huge mistake by Marxists-Leninists. I have yet to see one ML, that didn't condemn the laws on Homosexuality in the USSR.

I think anyone who now-adays pretends to be a communist but is homophobic is an idiot, nor is said person a communist.
_________________
Feet dragging on the pavement
The same people with the same arrangement
Irony can be quite funny
You making other people money
My working day has just begun
its not exactly what i would call fun


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 40 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Donate Now
Donate Now



Hosted by © 2017 FreeForums.org | Create a free forum | Powered by phpBB
About FreeForums | Legal | Advertise Here | Investors | Contact FreeForums.org
Report Violation

Design By Poker Bandits  

suspicion-preferred