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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:58 am 
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It bothers me too jas 4500. Nine wrote: " What I think is actually a much more 'real' problem is the prevalence of '*****' identity politics, these ridiculous ideas about 'gay genes' and 'being born that way!!1' that people on the left seem to have mindlessly taken up, and the construction/reinforcement of all these silly subcultural identities that are supposed to correspond to peoples' personal sexual preferences."

I don't know about "gay genes" but if we're not born "that way" then how did we get there? I don't think anyone would deliberately choose to be gay in this vindictive capitalist society, do you? As members of the working class isn't life difficult enough without choosing to be gay? Can you choose the colour of your eyes?


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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:51 am 
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[quote2="Fred"]Nine wrote: " What I think is actually a much more 'real' problem is the prevalence of '*****' identity politics, these ridiculous ideas about 'gay genes' and 'being born that way!!1' that people on the left seem to have mindlessly taken up, and the construction/reinforcement of all these silly subcultural identities that are supposed to correspond to peoples' personal sexual preferences."

I don't know about "gay genes" but if we're not born "that way" then how did we get there?[/quote2]
I don't know, but what I do know, for a fact, is that its absolutely possible for someones sexual preferences/orientation to change over time. Which isn't to say that there are not people who are only ever attracted to one *** or the other for the entirety of their life, but I suspect that such people are a minority.

[quote2="Fred"]I don't think anyone would deliberately choose to be gay in this vindictive capitalist society, do you?[/quote2]
Yes. I suspect a very, very significant percentage of people are neither properly gay nor properly straight (and in fact I think sexual orientation is a much more complicated thing than any neat, succinct little labels can possibly express), but I think plenty of these people choose to be one or the other, because its simpler to 'identify' as something in a society that is obsessed with putting people in boxes.

[quote2="Fred"]As members of the working class isn't life difficult enough without choosing to be gay? Can you choose the colour of your eyes?[/quote2]
See, I don't accept the idea that sexual orientation is analogous to something like eye color. I think its more comparable to tastes in food or tastes in music. Tastes can change.
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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:16 am 
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To be fair, I dunno if it's just about compulsively pigeon-holing people. A lot of this seems to come down to the whole patriarchal-household-as-function-of-capital thing, and insofar as queerness, of whatever sort, represents a departure from this, it represents a departure not from cultural norms but from the typical mode of the reproduction of labour. I think that a lot of the identity politics are a real if unwitting (and generally not very good) attempt to articulate this, and to find some way of reconciling queerness with life in capitalism. You can probably argue that insofar as it represents such a reconciliation, it should be criticised, but I think that it should at least be recognised that it represents people trying to make themselves fit into the logic of society rather than simply dogmatising this-or-that genre of sexuality.

It's sort of like trade unionism for your goolies: not what we should strive for, but not something that we should against somebody who's just trying to get by.
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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:19 pm 
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[quote="Tim Finnegan"]A lot of this seems to come down to the whole patriarchal-household-as-function-of-capital thing, and insofar as queerness, of whatever sort, represents a departure from this, it represents a departure not from cultural norms but from the typical mode of the reproduction of labour.

Does the "patriarchal household" even exist where you live? personally, most of the people in my social circle are in their mid to late twenties and their thirties, most aren't married, those with children are overwhelmingly single women, and I don't know ANY housewives, even outside of my social circle. And it seems to me that this is the norm nowadays. So maybe this analysis would have applied fifty years ago or whatever, but I dont think it does now.

[quote="Tim Finnegan"]It's sort of like trade unionism for your goolies: not what we should strive for, but not something that we should against somebody who's just trying to get by.
I don't think being critical of ***** identity politics necessarily entails "[holding] something against" individuals, at all.
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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Personally, I see Identity politics as the main problem. Nine raises an excellent point. There are many theories to how sexualities develop. I believe that the "gay culture" has been harmful because it generates ridiculous stereotypes, that are used for reactionary propaganda. I have seen "gay villages" before and they always make me feel sick. As TFM pointed out, it reduces human sexuality to a kinky circus. All of this was created by identity politics.

Also Nine is correct in saying that people do change, I did at one point have a girlfriend, but while I was in that relationship I noticed that I had other attractions that were stronger. I too don't like the labels. Nine is right in saying that sexuality is not concrete, but rather it is complex.

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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:22 pm 
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Nine wrote: "See i don't accept the idea that sexual orientation is analogous to something like eye color. I think its more comparable to tastes in food or tastes in music. Tastes can change."

I've never looked at it this way before Nine. You are right!


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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:03 am 
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[quote="nine"]Does the "patriarchal household" even exist where you live? personally, most of the people in my social circle are in their mid to late twenties and their thirties, most aren't married, those with children are overwhelmingly single women, and I don't know ANY housewives, even outside of my social circle. And it seems to me that this is the norm nowadays. So maybe this analysis would have applied fifty years ago or whatever, but I dont think it does now.

It's possibly a regional thing to some extent (I don't personally know anyone who fits the bill outside of my family, but there's plenty in my street and at my work), but the point isn't so much demographic prevalence as the fact that it still underlies the way we collectively think about gender and sexuality. That's probably changing, because there's only so long it can play the ideological backbone when it doesn't describe most people's experiences, but it's got enough of a weight of history behind it to explain something about ***** identity politics.

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I don't think being critical of ***** identity politics necessarily entails "[holding] something against" individuals, at all.

Yeah, poorly phrased on my part. I guess what I'm meaning is that I think we should see it as an insufficient response to a real obstacle, rather than simply as error.

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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:06 am 
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All in all I fail to see why it should matter who you sleep with. I don't really know why people care. I honestly don't care about the research, because it makesit seem as if you have a disease for not being concretely straight.

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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:36 am 
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I don't understand homophobia.
I am way more disturbed by some japanese porn I saw where some chick put all kinds of fish in her ******, then I am by a bloke touching another bloke.

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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:42 am 
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The aesthetic objection tends to follow homophobia rather than cause it. People don't like have a problem with homosexuality with gays because they think it's gross, they think it's gross because they have a problem with gays.


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