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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:08 am 
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Yes now many ML, Maoist, and Hoxhaist have reformed their positions. But ML, Maoist, and Hoxhaist countries have murdered them. Which is something no Marxist would have tolerated historically. In 1922, a Bolshevik science group went to a sexologist meeting in Belgium or Germany I believe, to try to research and learn more about it. But in 1933 under Stalin all research ended and rather trying to treat homosexuals, Stalin labelled them as covert fascists and counter-revolutionaries (quite ironic). Then they were put in the gulags.

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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:20 pm 
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I do not know if that story is true, never heard it before so maybe some source?
Now, although I would love to talk about homosexuality in the USSR, I don't think that is what this thread is about. Rather, what is the attitude of today's communists towards homosexuality? As the person that wrote the post was saying that there was homophobia in Hoxhaist and Maoist groups. That's not what I have experiencex with those groups, the contrary actually.

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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:17 am 
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This article on the oppression of gay people in Africa goes a bit into the historical background of this issue in the workers' movement
http://en.internationalism.org/icconlin ... oppression


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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 8:33 pm 
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Creep wrote:
I do not know if that story is true, never heard it before so maybe some source?
Now, although I would love to talk about homosexuality in the USSR, I don't think that is what this thread is about. Rather, what is the attitude of today's communists towards homosexuality? As the person that wrote the post was saying that there was homophobia in Hoxhaist and Maoist groups. That's not what I have experiencex with those groups, the contrary actually.


USSR Criminal Code, Article 121. Added 1933

And

http://theredstarvanguard.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/a-brief-guide-to-hoxhaism/

Your own comrades talk about it in criticsism section, not about USSR, but Hoxha's Albania.

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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:04 am 
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Well, Albania is still patriarchal society with a lot of clan divisions coming from feudalism, so what do you really except? Everyone who believes that Hoxha's Albania was a fairyland is an idiot or he probably can't find Albania on the map. Unfortunately, these clan divisions pretty much fuel Albanian society that they still have all that blood revenge bollocks. I went' to a school with a lot of Albanians and they were pretty much scared, because some of their family members were subjects to blood feuds, which means that somebody could come to Croatia and kill even them...

Also, in "Socialist" Yugoslavia homosexuals were locked in prisons until 1973 (I think).

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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:21 am 
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jas4500 wrote:
Creep wrote:
I do not know if that story is true, never heard it before so maybe some source?
Now, although I would love to talk about homosexuality in the USSR, I don't think that is what this thread is about. Rather, what is the attitude of today's communists towards homosexuality? As the person that wrote the post was saying that there was homophobia in Hoxhaist and Maoist groups. That's not what I have experiencex with those groups, the contrary actually.


USSR Criminal Code, Article 121. Added 1933

And

http://theredstarvanguard.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/a-brief-guide-to-hoxhaism/

Your own comrades talk about it in criticsism section, not about USSR, but Hoxha's Albania.


I was more talking about the part before that.

As you can see it is in the criticism section, which proves my point that the stance on homosexuality isn't upheld by Hoxhaists.

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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:54 am 
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Creep wrote:
jas4500 wrote:
Creep wrote:
I do not know if that story is true, never heard it before so maybe some source?
Now, although I would love to talk about homosexuality in the USSR, I don't think that is what this thread is about. Rather, what is the attitude of today's communists towards homosexuality? As the person that wrote the post was saying that there was homophobia in Hoxhaist and Maoist groups. That's not what I have experiencex with those groups, the contrary actually.


USSR Criminal Code, Article 121. Added 1933

And

http://theredstarvanguard.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/a-brief-guide-to-hoxhaism/

Your own comrades talk about it in criticsism section, not about USSR, but Hoxha's Albania.


I was more talking about the part before that.

As you can see it is in the criticism section, which proves my point that the stance on homosexuality isn't upheld by Hoxhaists.


http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09546549308575594

This is a book on the subject, while I don't care for the author, it seems to be a good source

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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:09 am 
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Just to complete the figure.
Bordiga's view over homoxuality was too very wrong. He thought homoxeuality was a product of decandent capitalist society and mistreatment.
Lotta Comunista had an inner newsletter that banned all homosexuals from their sections.
On the ICT's italian forum, we had a very nice and rich discussion with a gay comrade called Livio:
http://www.leftcom.org/it/comment/1853
Unfortunately it's all in italian (and haven't got time to translate). Briefly Livio was argueing the need for Gay Internationalist Groups. As far as I know PCINT said, then, that their is no need for separatist gay groups.

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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Karim Strelnikov wrote:
Just to complete the figure.
Bordiga's view over homoxuality was too very wrong. He thought homoxeuality was a product of decandent capitalist society and mistreatment.
Lotta Comunista had an inner newsletter that banned all homosexuals from their sections.
On the ICT's italian forum, we had a very nice and rich discussion with a gay comrade called Livio:
http://www.leftcom.org/it/comment/1853
Unfortunately it's all in italian (and haven't got time to translate). Briefly Livio was argueing the need for Gay Internationalist Groups. As far as I know PCINT said, then, that their is no need for separatist gay groups.


I used google translate to read the forum discussion, so the translation was rough, but understandable. I think this comrade has been brainwashed by identity politics. I agree with the PCInt that there is no need for separatism and to me it seemed very silly to advocate.

I want everyone to know that I only brought up my sexuality because of the topic of this thread. As I have said before I explicitly reject identity politics, the stupid sub-cultures, and the circuses in which it generates. I understand that "Gay" is associated with identity politics, but I only used the term as a reference for myself. I don't regard my sexuality as anything special or important, compared to others because it has no place in the Proletarian struggle. (I liked S. Artesian's approach.) Just stating my positions on the subject.

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 Post subject: Re: Something Bothering Me
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:41 pm 
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This time I agree with Karim: Bordiga and even Marx and Engels were quite homophobic in some expressions. I think they could not escape from some prejudices . It's not the only one: Engels was convinced that parrots understood what they said!
We always say that the important is to preserve their scientific method, not everything they wrote. If they were here with us, I'm sure they would have changed their positions according the last scientific discoveries.
Honestly I think that a marxist work on sexuality is still missing. I read something of Mario Mieli, quite interesting, but it cannot considered a scientific work.
A kiss to all the homophobic marxists!


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