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 Post subject: Re: reintroduction
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:43 pm 
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Ostrinski wrote:
...

I sympathize with the ultra-left on a lot of things, but ultra-leftists probably wouldn't really accept me into their camp.


I don't know how you can think this is true.

Good to see you over here anyway, even if you got booted off RevLeft.

Who was it you said should kill themself, and why, if you don't mind me asking?


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 Post subject: Re: reintroduction
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:55 pm 
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"There is no trace of utopianism in Marx, in the sense that he invented or imagined a 'new society.' No, he studied the birth of the new society from the old, the forms of transition from the latter to the former as a natural historical process. He examined the actual experience of the mass proletarian movement and tried to draw practical lessons from it. He 'learned' from the Commune, like all the great revolutionary thinkers who were not afraid to learn from the experience of the great movements of the oppressed classes, and who never preached pedantic 'sermons.'"- Lenin


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 Post subject: Re: reintroduction
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:01 pm 
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"There is no trace of utopianism in Marx, in the sense that he invented or imagined a 'new society.' No, he studied the birth of the new society from the old, the forms of transition from the latter to the former as a natural historical process. He examined the actual experience of the mass proletarian movement and tried to draw practical lessons from it. He 'learned' from the Commune, like all the great revolutionary thinkers who were not afraid to learn from the experience of the great movements of the oppressed classes, and who never preached pedantic 'sermons.'"- Lenin


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 Post subject: Re: reintroduction
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:06 pm 
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Broletariat. Just because the orgs. are small doesn't mean they are automatically irrelevant to the class struggle. In any case, as you say, "they serve a purpose" in connecting communists etc. Isn't this relevant to the class struggle? And you're sure that most posters on redmarx would have criticism of the orgs. Well! Thank god for that! Wouldn't it be terrible if comrades on here actually found something to approve of in other communist orgs? It'd be like cutting your own throat.


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 Post subject: Re: reintroduction
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:06 pm 
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Fred wrote:
Broletariat. Just because the orgs. are small doesn't mean they are automatically irrelevant to the class struggle. In any case, as you say, "they serve a purpose" in connecting communists etc. Isn't this relevant to the class struggle? And you're sure that most posters on redmarx would have criticism of the orgs. Well! Thank god for that! Wouldn't it be terrible if comrades on here actually found something to approve of in other communist orgs? It'd be like cutting your own throat.
The class struggle happens organically, spontaneously, and without political content. Therefore what communists are doing or aren't doing as far as organizing themselves, propagandizing, campaigning for certain political causes, etc. not only isn't necessary for the process of class struggle but doesn't really factor into its existence at all.

That isn't to say that communists don't have a part to play, however. Communists and their organizations can work to attach an explicitly communist political character to the workers' movement and class struggle, insist on the need for socialist revolution and provide a platform for opposition against reformist and non-revolutionary currents.

But parties and organizations themselves cannot be the struggle or movement and it is voluntarist to assume otherwise. It isn't the task of communists to stand at the forefront of the class struggle and beat the right ideas into the heads of the workers with a giant stick of Marxist theory. The revolutionary transformation of society is born out of the spontaneous movement of the class.

That's how I see it anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: reintroduction
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:09 am 
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Comrade Ostrinski. My post ended with the words "cutting your own throat". The stuff that follows is from somebody else. Is it you? The sentence beginning "But parties and organizations themselves..." and going on about beating the right ideas into the heads of the class with wads of marxist theory, and ending with a hymn to spontaneity is very interesting but has nothing to do with what I said, or with the views of what the function of the party would be as held by the orgs. And I take it you don't go with these views either which is something you have in common with the orgs. Your final sentence is your masterpiece. It sounds a bit like Marx's "the emancipation of tbe proletariat is the task of the class itself.."but that doesn't rule out the organization of a group of advanced revolutionaries in an org. Just as Matx and Engels were in the Communist League - an organization of revolutionaries. Clearly they must have thought that the spontaneity of tbe class, though admirable, in that it produced the Communist League, was not always going to be enough on it's own, but might value additional input too. So it was the Communist League that produced the Communist Manifesto. It wasn't a spontaneous production by the class. So organizations of revolutionaries do have their uses after all.


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 Post subject: Re: reintroduction
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:05 am 
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[quote="Ostrinski"][quote="Goatboy"][quote="Ostrinski"]Who do I know you as?


So you're that guy that doesn't post at all on revleft, just hands out rep? How come you're not such a ballbuster on their?

Haha. ´coz they´d bann my skinny *** if I did. ;) Here I also have to live up to my username from time to time and abuse the relaxed atmosphere. Anyway, I always thought you were a good poster on revleft who made some valuable contributions to what sometimes seems like an intelectual desert over there. As for why I post so seldom over there, I got burnt out from political activity about 3- 4 of years ago but still have an interest in marxism and politics. I initially just joined revleft to "keep up and learn more". I´m not sure how that´s working out tbh. :lol:


[quote="Ostrinski"]Yeah, he was a loyal DNZite until he read DNZ´s odes to the Gulag.Nah it started a bit before that.[/quote]
Yeah, I kind of knew that. This was just too tempting for the troll in me to write.

p.s. is it true your comrade-turned-foe 9mm is a sockpuppet of dodger?
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 Post subject: Re: reintroduction
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:45 am 
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Fred wrote:
Comrade Ostrinski. My post ended with the words "cutting your own throat". The stuff that follows is from somebody else. Is it you? The sentence beginning "But parties and organizations themselves..." and going on about beating the right ideas into the heads of the class with wads of marxist theory, and ending with a hymn to spontaneity is very interesting but has nothing to do with what I said, or with the views of what the function of the party would be as held by the orgs. And I take it you don't go with these views either which is something you have in common with the orgs. Your final sentence is your masterpiece. It sounds a bit like Marx's "the emancipation of tbe proletariat is the task of the class itself.."but that doesn't rule out the organization of a group of advanced revolutionaries in an org. Just as Matx and Engels were in the Communist League - an organization of revolutionaries. Clearly they must have thought that the spontaneity of tbe class, though admirable, in that it produced the Communist League, was not always going to be enough on it's own, but might value additional input too. So it was the Communist League that produced the Communist Manifesto. It wasn't a spontaneous production by the class. So organizations of revolutionaries do have their uses after all.


From the sounds of the first bit of your post, you're still using the old boardstyle aeroblack, you may want to change your forum style so that quotes become more obvious, you can do this under the usercontrol panel, under board preferences.

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 Post subject: Re: reintroduction
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:59 am 
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 Post subject: Re: reintroduction
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:40 am 
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TFM wrote:
I vaguely remember both 9mm and rosario. What were their politics like?

9mm is a DNZite, Kautskyite, "Revolutionary Marxist", "Orthodox Marxist", 2nd international social democrat.

Roasrio, I am not sure. I assume the same.

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