RedMarx

A Forum
It is currently Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:13 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]



Welcome


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Closing threads
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:18 pm 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:33 am
Posts: 95
Has thanked: 21 time
Have thanks: 13 time
Hi Blake's Baby. I agree sadly that a forum isn't a soviet. But I didn't think it was either. I agree that the outcomes of discussions can't be judged in advance: except perhaps by an all-seeing deity. Also, it is true that people can't join"not-organizations" but then why would they want to even If such a thing as a "not-organization'" could actually exist. But then you say that some "not-organizations" strike you as very well organized! (I love mystifying and teasing stuff like this!) and that the forum (the redmarx forum that is) is "not identified with the not - organization". At which point I think we parted company; though I am left with a great respect for your philosophical arguments potential: like A. J. Ayers "what do I mean by mean, and what do I mean by I?"

I agree that "different people have different ideas" and that people's ideas can change through discussion. You say: "The dynamics of clarification, though it is done collectively, are still individual,"which idea you go on to develop. I think it is here that you begin to reveal what it is that you fear about organizations, even including "not - organizations" which sometimes strike you as "very well organized". (You are a master of paradox, Blake's Baby! ) But you are being evasive. You are I think frightened of being gobbled up by some "organization" and losing your individuality, which you think is best reinforced and defended by never going anywhere near any organizations. It's like being afraid of the dark. There are good reasons for being afraid of the dark; something nasty may be lurking there. But generally speaking there isn't, and anyway you can take precautions of various kinds, and life requires we take risks.

But I will insist that redmarx itself is a form of organization - albeit primitive (lol) - and that it doesn't "regroup" people. Regroupment is such a poisonous activity of course. You could get yourself swallowed by some secretive and devilishly threatening super-organization bent on destroying everyone's individuality especially that of left-leaning communists. Its a nightmare waiting to happen, isn't it?

I agree that redmarx has no pretensions to be anything other than a forum for discussion. But what exactly do you mean by "pretensions". Do you think that anything more highly organized than redmarx must inevitably be pretentious? That if comrades sympathetic to left communism start taking this fact and themselves more seriously then they decently should that this must inevitably lead to the horrors of some organizational form, dangerous to personal freedom of thought and individuality? Is it forbidden for the proletariat to organize itself, because of something that went awfully wrong in the past?


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Closing threads
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:34 am 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:52 am
Posts: 141
Has thanked: 105 time
Have thanks: 63 time
[quote="Fred"]...

I agree that "different people have different ideas" and that people's ideas can change through discussion. You say: "The dynamics of clarification, though it is done collectively, are still individual,"which idea you go on to develop. I think it is here that you begin to reveal what it is that you fear about organizations, even including "not - organizations" which sometimes strike you as "very well organized". (You are a master of paradox, Blake's Baby! ) But you are being evasive. You are I think frightened of being gobbled up by some "organization" and losing your individuality, which you think is best reinforced and defended by never going anywhere near any organizations. It's like being afraid of the dark. There are good reasons for being afraid of the dark; something nasty may be lurking there. But generally speaking there isn't, and anyway you can take precautions of various kinds, and life requires we take risks...


And this is where I part company from you, I'm afraid. I'm no longer sure what your point is, or what you think my point is.

I hope that I do something rather opposite to never going near any organisations. I think I have very good relations with both the ICC and ICT, built up over more than a decade of discussing with them, and at least locally with the Anarchist Federation as well. I'm in regular contact with ex-members of the CBG and members of the SPGB, as well as having an extensive list of international contacts, am involved in a discussion group which has discussed working class politics over the last 14 years, and am an admin of a Left Comm facebook group, as well as being one of the main motivators of the ill-fated Left Communist Network - in which I was specifically pushing for it (unsuccessfully) to be used as precisely a tool for regroupment. I'm in favour of the regroupment of revolutionaries (on what basis, of course, is a tricky matter). But I don't think that RedMarx was set up for such a purpose. Claiming that it has failed to fulfil a purpose it doesn't have doesn't seem very sensible. Criticise it for failing as a forum; but to criticise it for not incubating a political organisation? There is, I heard, an old Russian saying: 'not even the cleverest bear can lay eggs'.

[quote="Fred"]...
I agree that redmarx has no pretensions to be anything other than a forum for discussion. But what exactly do you mean by "pretensions". Do you think that anything more highly organized than redmarx must inevitably be pretentious? That if comrades sympathetic to left communism start taking this fact and themselves more seriously then they decently should that this must inevitably lead to the horrors of some organizational form, dangerous to personal freedom of thought and individuality? Is it forbidden for the proletariat to organize itself, because of something that went awfully wrong in the past?

By 'it has no pretensions to be anything other than a forum for discussion' I mean it doesn't pretend to be other than what it is. Well, that's not quite true, it presented itself to be a forum for 'high-level' theoretical discussions, but then the 'Chat' forum is bigger than the 'News' and 'Theory' forums combined, so maybe it was actually a boys' club to talk about weightlifting, anime and *** with dolphins, pretending to be a forum for political discussion. But it wasn't, as far as I can see ever pretending to be about regroupment.

Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Closing threads
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:07 pm 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:33 am
Posts: 95
Has thanked: 21 time
Have thanks: 13 time
Thanks for your reply Blake's Baby. I suppose you must be right. But if redmarx isn't an organization, then how come the bosses of the non- organization are able to close down threads on it whenever they feel like it? Do non-organizations also have bosses?


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Closing threads
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:54 am 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:52 am
Posts: 141
Has thanked: 105 time
Have thanks: 63 time
I've already said I think non-organisations can be very organised. It's their forum, they're allowed to run it how they like.
Blake's Baby has been thanked by:


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Closing threads
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:55 pm 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:55 pm
Posts: 1315
Has thanked: 398 time
Have thanks: 938 time
Quote:
Well, that's not quite true, it presented itself to be a forum for 'high-level' theoretical discussions, but then the 'Chat' forum is bigger than the 'News' and 'Theory' forums combined, so maybe it was actually a boys' club to talk about weightlifting, anime and *** with dolphins, pretending to be a forum for political discussion. But it wasn't, as far as I can see ever pretending to be about regroupment.


You got that part right.....warts and all.

_________________
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it?
That's what it is to live the life of a slave.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Closing threads
PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:00 pm 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:33 am
Posts: 95
Has thanked: 21 time
Have thanks: 13 time
I don't think anybody ever thought it was about regroupment so I don't know why you harp on about it.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Closing threads
PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:16 am 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:52 am
Posts: 141
Has thanked: 105 time
Have thanks: 63 time
Fred wrote:
... one of the basic tenets of redmarx was that organization is anathema. Could that have been a mistake, or a false premise on which to "organize" a forum? Especially a Marxist forum. Surely Marxism is essentially about solidarity based on class consciousness as organized in groups? ...


Your criticism of RedMarx is that it's 'anti-organisational'. If you don't mean 'it could have been used to regroup revolutionaries but it wasn't' I don't know what you do mean.

I disagree that RedMarx is 'anti-organisational' anyway; I think some of the people involved with it have positions that can be called 'anti-organisational', and some have positions that can be characterised as 'against specific organisations/forms of organisation' and some of the people involved are 'pro-organisational' - either pro-existing organisations or pro-founding new ones, and it's even possible to be pro-some expressions of organisation but anti-others. But the forum as a forum is neither 'anti-organisational' nor 'pro-organisational' (nor, for that matter, 'anti-ICC' or any other specific organisation).


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Donate Now
Donate Now



Hosted by © 2017 FreeForums.org | Create a free forum | Powered by phpBB
About FreeForums | Legal | Advertise Here | Investors | Contact FreeForums.org
Report Violation

Design By Poker Bandits  

suspicion-preferred