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 Post subject: Re: Being political
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:09 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Being political
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:23 pm 
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Broletariat wrote:
Lev Bronsteinovich wrote:
Well all of your self-congratulatory remarks aside -- as well as the asinine avuncular comment about sectarian. Sorry to tar you with that brush. I realize that you leftcomms could never be accused of being sectarian. For a Marxist, a sectarian is someone that refuses to work with or even talk with other groups or tendencies that want to fight against capitalism and for socialism. Of course, you don't think you are sectarian, sectarians never do.



I hadn't realized that some posters, like Lev B. thought that red-Marx had anything to do with left communism. The opposite is probably true. Left communism is one of the things that really seems to get up the noses of many of the folk who post on red-Marx - or who used to post here - as left coms stand for the necessary organization of those who share a grasp of what real working class communism is (as opposed to left-wing bourgeois versions of it) and this idea of the importance of the organization of communists seems generally to be loathsome to a number of red-marxers . Similarly, left communism has an understanding of and sees the need to maintain continuity with the history of previous working class struggles, as these can shed light on the present. But this is (was!) understood on red-marx, by some, as an opportunity for remarks about "dry and dusty books" or references to the age and thus assumed irrelevance of the long- established left com community. Genuine discussion, and the culture of debate, was generally shunned in favour of mockery and insult. Is red-Marx now reaping the reward of its immaturity? Has all its cleverness come to nothing?

If red-Marx is to die then I for one will be sorry. It could have been good, and a helpful development for working class consciousness. I think Lev regrets its apparent failure too, and suspect this feeling may be shared by many who used to have their say here. Is it really all hopeless though? Can't things change and improve?

Comradely greetings to all those who have loved and tried to foster this site.


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 Post subject: Re: Being political
PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:35 pm 
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[quote="Lev Bronsteinovich"]Well all of your self-congratulatory remarks aside -- as well as the asinine avuncular comment about sectarian. Sorry to tar you with that brush. I realize that you leftcomms could never be accused of being sectarian. For a Marxist, a sectarian is someone that refuses to work with or even talk with other groups or tendencies that want to fight against capitalism and for socialism. Of course, you don't think you are sectarian, sectarians never do.

As for the "merciless criticism" -- that's fine, but the few active comrades on this site don't explain their arguments -- they are just out to attack. And Karl Marx, you are not. I don't take it personally -- as a Trotskyist in the US over the past 35 years I've taken more than a little flack, some of it vicious. I don't like it, but I don't really give a ****. You should ask yourselves why this forum is so fucking dead. There is no interesting discussion. You attack anyone that doesn't hew to your extremely narrow political few as an alien that should be cast out. You don't do yourselves any favors by this. You should be seeking a wider audience. If people of my political ilk are deemed pro-capitalist and unworthy of a conversation, then you guys are totally screwed. Good luck finding the other 12 people in the world that share your beliefs.

I had hopes that this would be a lively and interesting forum where far leftists could exchange ideas and polemics. Sadly there are few posters and the degree of homogeneity is extreme. Revleft, which has many deep flaws, especially their love for restricting and banning people, at least has many different perspectives that are usually being presented and argued. I did not realize when I started here how small and arrow this forum is. Ah well.


Uhh........no, and all the way around. First a sectarian is not a "someone"-- Marx is concerned with social organization and social struggle. So a sectarian individual, a "someone," has no meaning. It misses the point, and the boat, from the getgo. A sectarian organization is one that places its specific interests in place of the interests, needs, and advance of the class as a whole. Given this Marxist definition of sectarian, I think Leninists, which Trotskyists claim to be, are truly sectarians... all that stuff about representing a vanguard and "leading" the workers.......

And no, we don't attack anyone who doesn't hew to our "narrow political" view. We have Zero here, an admirer of Daniel DeLeon. We have numerous individuals with numerous disagreements, and we sort those out passionately, strenuously. What we would like to see, what we expect from anyone who wants to participate is that they discard their ideologies, their set-piece answers before they enter... such set piece answers for example being ahistorical nods to doses of Red Terror, without regard for the debilitating impact such doses may have had on the working class itself. We attack such........smugness is the best way I can describe it.

Does the forum lack interesting discussions? Well, I don't know, but I think issues of value production, profitability, overproduction, the reproduction of capital are really interesting. You may not. I think the real history of capital's adaptation to and absorption of certain archaic relations of land and labor in the mideast, asia, latin america, incuding the re-formation of the former slaveholders in the US South is really interesting.

I don't think arguing about whether in theory it is every permissible for a so-called socialist revolutionary government to suppress workers own organizations is interesting, because those making the argument are only trying to defend an ideological position not provide a critique of the actual process by which so-called revolutionary governments actually do suppress workers own organizations.

I personally don't have the least bit of desire on a site such as this, which announces itself as pretty much anti-vanguardist, council communists, or as Lenin would have it "ultra-left" to argue with Trotskyists about the role of the vanguard party, imperialism, the right of nations to self-determination. Those are not interesting discussions.

Now if you have some contribution to make...say about the prospects for capitalism in the near future; the problems that might crop up in 2014; or say the significance of Marx's discussions on fixed capital and turnover time; or say what is going on in Egypt; or say profitability and accumulation... or any of 1000 other subjects... then feel free. So far, though, you've only wanted to tell us about how you look forward to distributing a dose of "red terror." Not interesting.

On other sites, I argue with trotskyists, social democrats, on occasion I've even been known to defend Lenin from the charge of being "bought with German gold," but I expect something better here.
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 Post subject: Re: Being political
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:17 am 
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"Is it really all hopeless though?"

I don't mind the hopelessness. It gives room for the vanguard party to take over.


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 Post subject: Re: Being political
PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:24 am 
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damn, repeating Zizek jokes is the lowest


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 Post subject: Re: Being political
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:22 pm 
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Fred wrote:
But this is (was!) understood on red-marx, by some, as an opportunity for remarks about "dry and dusty books" or references to the age and thus assumed irrelevance of the long- established left com community.

This might cheer you up, mate.

Fred wrote:
Left communism is one of the things that really seems to get up the noses of many of the folk who post on red-Marx - or who used to post here - as left coms stand for the necessary organization of those who share a grasp of what real working class communism is (as opposed to left-wing bourgeois versions of it) and this idea of the importance of the organization of communists seems generally to be loathsome to a number of red-marxers .

This is more of a stereotype than a reality. There aren't that many of an anti-organisational bent on RedMarx, to be honest, and certainly not compared to an anarchist forum and the like. There might be some people who are against current organisations or attack them in some way, but these are more a result of us having been a small forum and attracted hipsters.

Lev wrote:
You don't do yourselves any favors by this. You should be seeking a wider audience. If people of my political ilk are deemed pro-capitalist and unworthy of a conversation, then you guys are totally screwed.

I agree that people can be a bit silly when it comes to chasing others away, and I don't have that much of a problem with Trots posting here, although it's probably not the main reason for inactivity. It doesn't seem frequent enough to be the major cause, and any contribution it makes is probably minimal.

Lev wrote:
Good luck finding the other 12 people in the world that share your beliefs.

There's only two, in my case.

Lev wrote:
For a Marxist, a sectarian is someone that refuses to work with or even talk with other groups or tendencies that want to fight against capitalism and for socialism. Of course, you don't think you are sectarian, sectarians never do.

One need not talk with reformists, etc., on a communist forum, although they'll evidently be important in the early workers' movement, and so can't be neglected or cut off completely in that context. In any case, every group also thinks that it's against capitalism and for socialism.

TFM wrote:
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Behave.

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 Post subject: Re: Being political
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:05 pm 
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Discussion Groups - A Leftist Trap

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