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 Post subject: Re: Persecution of the Bourgeoisie
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:27 am 
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[quote="Lev Bronsteinovich"]We are hoping to build a new society. Our project/purpose is not to punish the bourgeoisie, but to render them harmless. Those that resist the changes might appropriately get a dose of red terror -- but only if they engage in counterrevolutionary activity. We need to defend the revolution -- but bloodthirsty revenge has no place.


**** you *******, and get off this site. "Dose of red terror"? Like the Cheka arbitrary arrests and executions? Like the suppression of the Left SRs? Like Kronstadt? Like the suppression of the soviets? Your reference to "red terror" says all that needs to be said about your Trotskyism

TSM has it and said it right. But I would add, that history has shown us that the real counterrevolutionary activity always gets presented as "red terror."
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 Post subject: Re: Persecution of the Bourgeoisie
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:25 am 
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[quote="S.Artesian"][quote="Lev Bronsteinovich"]We are hoping to build a new society. Our project/purpose is not to punish the bourgeoisie, but to render them harmless. Those that resist the changes might appropriately get a dose of red terror -- but only if they engage in counterrevolutionary activity. We need to defend the revolution -- but bloodthirsty revenge has no place.


**** you *******, and get off this site. "Dose of red terror"? Like the Cheka arbitrary arrests and executions? Like the suppression of the Left SRs? Like Kronstadt? Like the suppression of the soviets? Your reference to "red terror" says all that needs to be said about your Trotskyism

TSM has it and said it right. But I would add, that history has shown us that the real counterrevolutionary activity always gets presented as "red terror."

Gotta agree with Arty here.

I'll let it slide for you Lev since you're new an ****, but we don't really tolerate that sort of thing over here, we have standards (sort of) man.
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 Post subject: Re: Persecution of the Bourgeoisie
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:49 am 
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[quote="Broletariat"][quote="S.Artesian"][quote="Lev Bronsteinovich"]We are hoping to build a new society. Our project/purpose is not to punish the bourgeoisie, but to render them harmless. Those that resist the changes might appropriately get a dose of red terror -- but only if they engage in counterrevolutionary activity. We need to defend the revolution -- but bloodthirsty revenge has no place.


**** you *******, and get off this site. "Dose of red terror"? Like the Cheka arbitrary arrests and executions? Like the suppression of the Left SRs? Like Kronstadt? Like the suppression of the soviets? Your reference to "red terror" says all that needs to be said about your Trotskyism

TSM has it and said it right. But I would add, that history has shown us that the real counterrevolutionary activity always gets presented as "red terror."

Gotta agree with Arty here.

I'll let it slide for you Lev since you're new an ****, but we don't really tolerate that sort of thing over here, we have standards (sort of) man.
What are those standards? I have to be a Leftcomm? Or an Anarchist? How do you guys feel about the Great Terror of the French Revolution? I would think some kind of historical understanding beyond the most simplistic would be welcome. . . or at least a good argument about it. I guess I won't last long here if you guys **** yourselves when somebody presents an opinion that you don't agree with.

As for the categorical statement that "real counterrevolutionary activity always gets presented as 'red terror'" it is simply false. Certainly it has been true at times, but sometimes counterrevolution is presented as white terror or protecting the nation or some such thing. The difficulties of the situation the Bolsheviks found themselves in was extreme -- the circumstances sucked. But let's leave this particular discussion for another thread.

I think, we generally agree that we are for communism -- but may strongly disagree on how to get there. I presume there have been discussions here already about the Cheka, Kronstadt, etc. -- and maybe comrades don't want more of that. But why would you have to "let it slide"? That sounds kind of Stalinist-like to me. If I'm wrong about this stuff, smack me down in an argument -- don't ban me. Some of you certainly aren't shy with your anger and contempt. That's okay, I won't wilt under attack -- although a little decent comradely comportment couldn't hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: Persecution of the Bourgeoisie
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:11 pm 
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[quote="Lev Bronsteinovich"][quote="Broletariat"][quote="S.Artesian"][quote="Lev Bronsteinovich"]We are hoping to build a new society. Our project/purpose is not to punish the bourgeoisie, but to render them harmless. Those that resist the changes might appropriately get a dose of red terror -- but only if they engage in counterrevolutionary activity. We need to defend the revolution -- but bloodthirsty revenge has no place.


**** you *******, and get off this site. "Dose of red terror"? Like the Cheka arbitrary arrests and executions? Like the suppression of the Left SRs? Like Kronstadt? Like the suppression of the soviets? Your reference to "red terror" says all that needs to be said about your Trotskyism

TSM has it and said it right. But I would add, that history has shown us that the real counterrevolutionary activity always gets presented as "red terror."

Gotta agree with Arty here.

I'll let it slide for you Lev since you're new an ****, but we don't really tolerate that sort of thing over here, we have standards (sort of) man.
What are those standards? I have to be a Leftcomm? Or an Anarchist? How do you guys feel about the Great Terror of the French Revolution? I would think some kind of historical understanding beyond the most simplistic would be welcome. . . or at least a good argument about it. I guess I won't last long here if you guys **** yourselves when somebody presents an opinion that you don't agree with.

As for the categorical statement that "real counterrevolutionary activity always gets presented as 'red terror'" it is simply false. Certainly it has been true at times, but sometimes counterrevolution is presented as white terror or protecting the nation or some such thing. The difficulties of the situation the Bolsheviks found themselves in was extreme -- the circumstances sucked. But let's leave this particular discussion for another thread.

I think, we generally agree that we are for communism -- but may strongly disagree on how to get there. I presume there have been discussions here already about the Cheka, Kronstadt, etc. -- and maybe comrades don't want more of that. But why would you have to "let it slide"? That sounds kind of Stalinist-like to me. If I'm wrong about this stuff, smack me down in an argument -- don't ban me. Some of you certainly aren't shy with your anger and contempt. That's okay, I won't wilt under attack -- although a little decent comradely comportment couldn't hurt.

Don't muck up the French Revolution with this nonsense, the only reason the terror existed was as a result of sans-culottes agitation against the National Convention and the Jacobins, something which I don't recall most Russian workers doing when the Bolsheviks started using the the 'red' terror to crush any political opposition to the party, workers very much included. The vast majority of it was conducted well outside of state parameters of oversight as well, not precisely something we can say for Lenin's adaptation on the theme.
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 Post subject: Re: Persecution of the Bourgeoisie
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:29 pm 
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[quote="Lev Bronsteinovich"]
What are those standards? I have to be a Leftcomm? Or an Anarchist? How do you guys feel about the Great Terror of the French Revolution? I would think some kind of historical understanding beyond the most simplistic would be welcome. . . or at least a good argument about it. I guess I won't last long here if you guys **** yourselves when somebody presents an opinion that you don't agree with.

As for the categorical statement that "real counterrevolutionary activity always gets presented as 'red terror'" it is simply false. Certainly it has been true at times, but sometimes counterrevolution is presented as white terror or protecting the nation or some such thing. The difficulties of the situation the Bolsheviks found themselves in was extreme -- the circumstances sucked. But let's leave this particular discussion for another thread.

I think, we generally agree that we are for communism -- but may strongly disagree on how to get there. I presume there have been discussions here already about the Cheka, Kronstadt, etc. -- and maybe comrades don't want more of that. But why would you have to "let it slide"? That sounds kind of Stalinist-like to me. If I'm wrong about this stuff, smack me down in an argument -- don't ban me. Some of you certainly aren't shy with your anger and contempt. That's okay, I won't wilt under attack -- although a little decent comradely comportment couldn't hurt.


The "standards" are simply what enhances, contributes, supports, strengthens the self-organization of the working class for its overthrow of capitalism-- and if you look at the history of the "red terror," it did no such thing.

Some points:

1) you put your finger on it, and your foot in the mouth when you refer to the French Revolution and the Jacobin terror. Let's not forget that the Jacobin terror was used to suppress the commune, the commune-ists of that time...and of course once that was accomplished-- it set up the triumvirate, the committee of public safety, for their own overthrow.

2) Let's also not forget that the Jacobins were the representatives of small, private property, and the Bolsheviks, in identifying with the Jacobins, gave the truth to the limits of their own revolutionary capabilities, an allegiance to rule by themselves as opposed to rule by the class.

3) You really need to look a little bit more deeply into how the "red terror" was conducted, who conducted it, and who its victims were. Let me just say, IMO, that the Bolsheviks, extreme circumstances not withstanding--I mean it is a revolution. What the **** do you expect the circumstances to be, made and repeated mistakes of such degree and with such frequency, particularly regarding the Left SRs, their refusal to subordinate their party to the soviets etc that "extreme circumstances" do not suffice as an explanation. A better explanation is that the Bolsheviks thought, organized, and acted as if the preservation of the "revolutionary state" was the first priority-- more important than the opportunity to expand the revolution internationally (their actions in Turkey being the best example), more important than institutions of class rule which formed the material legitimacy, the class power, for their own seizure of power.

We generally agree that we're for communism? That's a meaningless statement. The CPs, the Maoists, Gueveraist "generally agree" that their for communism? So what?

What's more important is what we don't agree on; the conduct of the Bolsheviks throughout the 1918-1919 period and after; the use of "red terror" against the organizations of the class itself, against workers strikes, against the Left SRs, against Kronstadt; the notion of "party" of "professional revolutionaries" that somehow embodies superior consciousness, expertise, ability to that of the class itself.

And you know what? I don't want to have to argue about that on this site.

PS Nobody "pissed" themselves, when reading your "arguments." We're just not about to tolerate the glib, snide, self-congratulatory ******** about "doses of red terror" when the history of things called "red terror"-- Russia post 1917, Spain, Vietnam [you don't think the Stalinists practiced "red terror" in Vietnam in 1937? Matter of opinion. They justify it as that) is so painfully clear.
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 Post subject: Re: Persecution of the Bourgeoisie
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:39 pm 
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[quote="S.Artesian"][quote="Lev Bronsteinovich"]
What are those standards? I have to be a Leftcomm? Or an Anarchist? How do you guys feel about the Great Terror of the French Revolution? I would think some kind of historical understanding beyond the most simplistic would be welcome. . . or at least a good argument about it. I guess I won't last long here if you guys **** yourselves when somebody presents an opinion that you don't agree with.

As for the categorical statement that "real counterrevolutionary activity always gets presented as 'red terror'" it is simply false. Certainly it has been true at times, but sometimes counterrevolution is presented as white terror or protecting the nation or some such thing. The difficulties of the situation the Bolsheviks found themselves in was extreme -- the circumstances sucked. But let's leave this particular discussion for another thread.

I think, we generally agree that we are for communism -- but may strongly disagree on how to get there. I presume there have been discussions here already about the Cheka, Kronstadt, etc. -- and maybe comrades don't want more of that. But why would you have to "let it slide"? That sounds kind of Stalinist-like to me. If I'm wrong about this stuff, smack me down in an argument -- don't ban me. Some of you certainly aren't shy with your anger and contempt. That's okay, I won't wilt under attack -- although a little decent comradely comportment couldn't hurt.


The "standards" are simply what enhances, contributes, supports, strengthens the self-organization of the working class for its overthrow of capitalism-- and if you look at the history of the "red terror," it did no such thing.

Some points:

1) you put your finger on it, and your foot in the mouth when you refer to the French Revolution and the Jacobin terror. Let's not forget that the Jacobin terror was used to suppress the commune, the commune-ists of that time...and of course once that was accomplished-- it set up the triumvirate, the committee of public safety, for their own overthrow.

2) Let's also not forget that the Jacobins were the representatives of small, private property, and the Bolsheviks, in identifying with the Jacobins, gave the truth to the limits of their own revolutionary capabilities, an allegiance to rule by themselves as opposed to rule by the class.

3) You really need to look a little bit more deeply into how the "red terror" was conducted, who conducted it, and who its victims were. Let me just say, IMO, that the Bolsheviks, extreme circumstances not withstanding--I mean it is a revolution. What the **** do you expect the circumstances to be, made and repeated mistakes of such degree and with such frequency, particularly regarding the Left SRs, their refusal to subordinate their party to the soviets etc that "extreme circumstances" do not suffice as an explanation. A better explanation is that the Bolsheviks thought, organized, and acted as if the preservation of the "revolutionary state" was the first priority-- more important than the opportunity to expand the revolution internationally (their actions in Turkey being the best example), more important than institutions of class rule which formed the material legitimacy, the class power, for their own seizure of power.

We generally agree that we're for communism? That's a meaningless statement. The CPs, the Maoists, Gueveraist "generally agree" that their for communism? So what?

What's more important is what we don't agree on; the conduct of the Bolsheviks throughout the 1918-1919 period and after; the use of "red terror" against the organizations of the class itself, against workers strikes, against the Left SRs, against Kronstadt; the notion of "party" of "professional revolutionaries" that somehow embodies superior consciousness, expertise, ability to that of the class itself.

And you know what? I don't want to have to argue about that on this site.

PS Nobody "pissed" themselves, when reading your "arguments." We're just not about to tolerate the glib, snide, self-congratulatory ******** about "doses of red terror" when the history of things called "red terror"-- Russia post 1917, Spain, Vietnam [you don't think the Stalinists practiced "red terror" in Vietnam in 1937? Matter of opinion. They justify it as that) is so painfully clear.
You guys don't tolerate a whole lot here, do you? I'm pretty familiar with how the Red Terror was conducted. It is precisely because the Bolsheviks had a perspective for international revolution, that they were committed internationalists that I find your arguments unconvincing. I will read up on Turkey, but I doubt that what happened there would entirely negate the internationalism of the CPUSSR prior to 1924. It seems obvious to me that we can't have a sane discussion about Kronstadt here, so I won't even go there. But the Left SRs were involved in counterrevolutionary activities when they met with some repression -- any particular incidents or persons that you are defending -- maybe I'm unaware of some particulars. It is my opinion that the Bolsheviks had a choice, allow the revolution to be liquidated and replaced by some kind of peasant-based, SR lead government, that would have fallen very quickly to the Whites and their allies, or try to hold on to power and try to spark the international revolution.

Your hatred of the Bolsheviks is startling to me. In my almost 40 years in left politics I never came across leftcomms until I started posting on Revleft. Some of the **** you are throwing at me is new to me. The stuff about the horrors of the Red Terror is not, of course, as it is also presented by some rather crummy anti-communist bourgeois historians and Anarchists.

Vietnam? Yeah, the fucking Terror was used mainly by Stalinists against Trotskyists who led a mass organization in that country. So what? So the Stalinists called it "Red Terror" -- so do you take the word of everyone that calls themselves a "socialist"? Or a "democrat"? A lot of horrible things have been done in the course of history in the name of something or another that had nothing to do with it (e.g., The War to End all Wars). FFS, Hitler called his movement "National Socialism." Does that tar the word "socialism" by associating it to fascism? My reading of history is that the Bolsheviks were pretty harsh, but not excessive. That changed radically when Stalin ascended to power.

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 Post subject: Re: Persecution of the Bourgeoisie
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:40 pm 
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Just add a thought: Do the folks getting in a lather about the term "Red Terror" really think that the day after the revolution all you need are smiles and daisies to protect against counterrevolution? You don't think there might be a bloody fight?


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 Post subject: Re: Persecution of the Bourgeoisie
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:17 pm 
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[quote="Lev Bronsteinovich"]Just add a thought: Do the folks getting in a lather about the term "Red Terror" really think that the day after the revolution all you need are smiles and daisies to protect against counterrevolution? You don't think there might be a bloody fight?


Nah, it's mainly because it makes you sound like a Bolshevik cosplayer/crazy person. As for your question I think that it's missing the point - violence and repression of reactionaries could become necessary, but it matters who it's directed against. In the case of the USSR it was undeniably used to protect the state rather than the proletariat.

[quote="Lev Bronsteinovich"]Your hatred of the Bolsheviks is startling to me. In my almost 40 years in left politics I never came across leftcomms until I started posting on Revleft. Some of the **** you are throwing at me is new to me. The stuff about the horrors of the Red Terror is not, of course, as it is also presented by some rather crummy anti-communist bourgeois historians and Anarchists.

Yeah, so? Liberals and capitalists don't think that the USSR was capitalist, and neither do Ortho-Trots. Doesn't really mean anything.
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 Post subject: Re: Persecution of the Bourgeoisie
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:10 pm 
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Lev Bronsteinovich wrote:
Just add a thought: Do the folks getting in a lather about the term "Red Terror" really think that the day after the revolution all you need are smiles and daisies to protect against counterrevolution? You don't think there might be a bloody fight?


No, I think the day of the revolution will be a bloody fight against the myriad self-styled vanguards of the Stalinist, Maoist, and Trotskyist sort, as the Trotskyists will be out there urging a "united front" with the Stalinists, Maoists, Guevarists, Castrophiles, etc. etc. despite their proven record as collaborators, capitulators to the bourgeoisie, and assassins of the working class.

And PS: We actually tolerate quite a lot here. We tolerate you, despite your inability to answer a direct question.

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 Post subject: Re: Persecution of the Bourgeoisie
PostPosted: Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:30 pm 
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Lev Bronsteinovich wrote:
Just add a thought: Do the folks getting in a lather about the term "Red Terror" really think that the day after the revolution all you need are smiles and daisies to protect against counterrevolution? You don't think there might be a bloody fight?


It's like Hébert said, the moderates have felled more of our own than the most overtly proclaimed reactionaries. I don't think most here have an issue with violence itself, but rather the notion of violence being something distributed via official party channels.

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