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 Post subject: Re: Is bodily autonomy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:07 am 
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swordfishtrombone wrote:
Broletariat wrote:
The conversation happened via AIM, and tbh it was more light-hearted than TC is making it out to be.

The gist of it was, the TC made a post on revleft saying women had the right to abortion because they own their body or whatever generic rhetoric along those lines. This statement is, of course, predicated around the concept of ownership.

The real question, TC, is how YOU could possibly support abortion using that logic in a post-capitalist society where the paradigm of private property has vanished.
I support the demand for abortion rights in bourgeois society as a political initiative, for reasons that I outlined in my original post. It is advantageous to the proletariat and proletarian families, especially those of which that are potentially burdened with the prospect of motherhood and all of the negative effects it can have on day-to-day existence in an alienating society.

I oppose on materialist grounds the nonsensical mysticism of the 'sanctity of life' concept, on the premise that there is no material basis on which to be able to measure such a characteristic. I oppose, as a communist, the condemnation of women to "motherly duty" and other such bourgeois drudgery and fiercely reject all values and ideologies that uphold and reinforce the bourgeois family unit.

Now, obviously, if working class women couldn't even exercise such a right or experience great financial or legal obstacles in exercising such a right, it would be practically worthless and not worth defending or fighting for, because as you noted above, it would mean nothing for our class as only women from bourgeois or more affluent backgrounds would be able to benefit from it. That is why 'free abortion on demand' is the necessary form of the demand, because it is what makes it genuinely class-oriented and reflective of proletarian interests. I fully agree with and endorse your position in this regard.

And, yes, I reject and oppose any conceivable notion that there is any circumstance in which it is OK for me not to be able to make decisions regarding my own body, i.e. a scenario in which I am not guaranteed the authority to reject non-consensual sexual advances. Or a scenario in which I'm not guaranteed access to the means to have an abortion, or any other such medical practice. Or in which I'm not allowed to terminate my own life. Or in which I'm thrown in a hushed up forced-labor camp and coerced into back-breaking work for whatever reason.

I think the issue of bodily autonomy is related to the termination of coercive social relations. I don't think that it's some inherent or universal right that just fell out of the sky or that we're born with by virtue of some weird alchemy. That would indeed be a liberal and idealist position, as it would take for granted that the concept of rights is a social construct, an idea, and like all other social constructs and ideas has a material basis. I think a post-capitalist global community of freely associated human beings, in this sense, lays the foundation for people to have complete and thorough guarantees against any type of coercion or non-consensual activity regarding their own body.



I'm still going to call you a liberal in AIM

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 Post subject: Re: Is bodily autonomy
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:16 am 
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Quote:
a liberal concept?

I was accused of being a liberal about a month or two ago by Zero and Brole for saying that people should have control over their bodies, and in fact should have the right to this control. I was told that I was adhering to bourgeois liberal conceptions of both rights and ownership, despite the fact that I maintained that the concept of rights merely is merely a social construct which reinforced the liberal ideologies of the Enlightenment during the consolidation of bourgeois society.


It's not so much a liberal concept as you have it ***-backwards, historically. That is to say when someone is trying to compel some otherone to do something with his or her body, it really isn't a case of someone vs. some other one. It's social; some class, some social organization, some incarnation of property so to speak; some embodiment of commodity fetishism is trying to force some other class, some other anti-property, some others into the form, the mode, of that property. This is transparently clear with the struggle for women to have free access to safe medical procedures.

So remove the property issue, you remove the compulsion.

Now the issue of autonomy becomes more or less an exercise in abstraction when separated from the concrete social conditions of the struggles at hand. So we get the posing of questions like: "Post-proletarian revolution, what if somebody doesn't want their kids to be immunized against measles, mumps, HPV, etc ?"

Is that really a worry, a burning issue that we have to consider? If the answer is yes, let's just wait until there is actually that social condition, that post proletarian revolution to see how it shakes out.

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 Post subject: Re: Is bodily autonomy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:56 am 
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There will be no proletarians after capitalism, and hence no proletarian revolutionaries. We'll all be "communists" in the sense that our mode of social reproduction of ourselves will be by and through communism.

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 Post subject: Re: Is bodily autonomy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:36 am 
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[quote="S.Artesian"]
Quote:
a liberal concept?

I was accused of being a liberal about a month or two ago by Zero and Brole for saying that people should have control over their bodies, and in fact should have the right to this control. I was told that I was adhering to bourgeois liberal conceptions of both rights and ownership, despite the fact that I maintained that the concept of rights merely is merely a social construct which reinforced the liberal ideologies of the Enlightenment during the consolidation of bourgeois society.


It's not so much a liberal concept as you have it ***-backwards, historically. That is to say when someone is trying to compel some otherone to do something with his or her body, it really isn't a case of someone vs. some other one. It's social; some class, some social organization, some incarnation of property so to speak; some embodiment of commodity fetishism is trying to force some other class, some other anti-property, some others into the form, the mode, of that property. This is transparently clear with the struggle for women to have free access to safe medical procedures.

So remove the property issue, you remove the compulsion.

Now the issue of autonomy becomes more or less an exercise in abstraction when separated from the concrete social conditions of the struggles at hand. So we get the posing of questions like: "Post-proletarian revolution, what if somebody doesn't want their kids to be immunized against measles, mumps, HPV, etc ?"

Is that really a worry, a burning issue that we have to consider? If the answer is yes, let's just wait until there is actually that social condition, that post proletarian revolution to see how it shakes out.
I completely agree that there is a material basis found in broader class society for all forms of coercion, which I touched upon my last post. Just as much as there is a relationship between coercive relations and class society, the struggle against the existence of coercive relationships is necessarily tied up with the class struggle and by extension proletarian emancipation. I have 0 interest divorcing the class content from anything here.

I don't necessarily agree, though, that the issue of autonomy becomes an abstraction once property and classes are taken out of the picture. I don't think that the example you used in your post (a parent not wanting their child to be immunized) applies to what I'm talking about because a) I imagine any related authority on the part of parents to be significantly curtailed in a post-capitalist society and b) it's a much more trivial issue than the ones I invoked in my other post.

Surely we won't need to endure intellectual exercises such as these just to legitimize a guarantee of safety against non-consensual sexual advances? Or for those in extreme pain or physical disarray to be condoned in ending terminating their life?
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 Post subject: Re: Is bodily autonomy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:38 am 
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Broletariat wrote:
swordfishtrombone wrote:
Broletariat wrote:
The conversation happened via AIM, and tbh it was more light-hearted than TC is making it out to be.

The gist of it was, the TC made a post on revleft saying women had the right to abortion because they own their body or whatever generic rhetoric along those lines. This statement is, of course, predicated around the concept of ownership.

The real question, TC, is how YOU could possibly support abortion using that logic in a post-capitalist society where the paradigm of private property has vanished.
I support the demand for abortion rights in bourgeois society as a political initiative, for reasons that I outlined in my original post. It is advantageous to the proletariat and proletarian families, especially those of which that are potentially burdened with the prospect of motherhood and all of the negative effects it can have on day-to-day existence in an alienating society.

I oppose on materialist grounds the nonsensical mysticism of the 'sanctity of life' concept, on the premise that there is no material basis on which to be able to measure such a characteristic. I oppose, as a communist, the condemnation of women to "motherly duty" and other such bourgeois drudgery and fiercely reject all values and ideologies that uphold and reinforce the bourgeois family unit.

Now, obviously, if working class women couldn't even exercise such a right or experience great financial or legal obstacles in exercising such a right, it would be practically worthless and not worth defending or fighting for, because as you noted above, it would mean nothing for our class as only women from bourgeois or more affluent backgrounds would be able to benefit from it. That is why 'free abortion on demand' is the necessary form of the demand, because it is what makes it genuinely class-oriented and reflective of proletarian interests. I fully agree with and endorse your position in this regard.

And, yes, I reject and oppose any conceivable notion that there is any circumstance in which it is OK for me not to be able to make decisions regarding my own body, i.e. a scenario in which I am not guaranteed the authority to reject non-consensual sexual advances. Or a scenario in which I'm not guaranteed access to the means to have an abortion, or any other such medical practice. Or in which I'm not allowed to terminate my own life. Or in which I'm thrown in a hushed up forced-labor camp and coerced into back-breaking work for whatever reason.

I think the issue of bodily autonomy is related to the termination of coercive social relations. I don't think that it's some inherent or universal right that just fell out of the sky or that we're born with by virtue of some weird alchemy. That would indeed be a liberal and idealist position, as it would take for granted that the concept of rights is a social construct, an idea, and like all other social constructs and ideas has a material basis. I think a post-capitalist global community of freely associated human beings, in this sense, lays the foundation for people to have complete and thorough guarantees against any type of coercion or non-consensual activity regarding their own body.



I'm still going to call you a liberal in AIM
Figured.

TFM wrote:
A political initiative which equates to the subordination of the communist programme to the female nationalist project; 'nationalism' is the substitution of an imagined political community's interests for proletarian interests.

It's not worth discussing the explicit demand for free abortion as a class demand unless we make it into one, independent of all nationalism, as only liberals have historically demanded it.
A tip of the fedora to you as well, my good man.

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 Post subject: Re: Is bodily autonomy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 5:26 am 
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[quote="TFM"][quote="swordfishtrombone"]A tip of the fedora to you as well, my good man.

lol, is this the standard response to an analysis which denies that identity politics has anything to do with communism now?

iirc, you fit the stereotype of the fedora-wearer pretty fucking well mate.

take your whiteknight *** somewhere else.Don't get so emotional for **** sake.
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 Post subject: Re: Is bodily autonomy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:59 am 
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Veering off course, drop the tit-for-tat guys

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 Post subject: Re: Is bodily autonomy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:01 am 
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TFM wrote:
A political initiative which equates to the subordination of the communist programme to the female nationalist project; 'nationalism' is the substitution of an imagined political community's interests for proletarian interests.


Try to form your arguments less by playing with language. In this case, nothing of much worth is gained by equating feminism with nationalism.

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 Post subject: Re: Is bodily autonomy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:37 am 
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I thought TFM's earlier post was a joke... :/

So I guess the conclusion is that opposing discriminatory laws against women (which target working class women in particular, although--i guess unsurprisingly--the enormous class component of this issue seems to fly right over some peoples' heads) means the subordination of The, implicitly male, Proletariat to "female nationalism".... ?

Also, dismissing the issue of bodily autonomy as some liberal abstraction in this case seems to completely miss the fact that the denial of female bodily autonomy (on a practical level, not just in as an 'idea') is a pretty universal feature of the oppression of women.

At any rate, TFM, maybe you could point out where opposing restrictions on abortion has derailed the class struggle or led workers to slaughter each other, since it is apparently analogous to nationalism.

P.S. sorry for the **** post, on my way out the door


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 Post subject: Re: Is bodily autonomy
PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:46 am 
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[quote="nine"]I thought TFM's earlier post was a joke... :/

So I guess the conclusion is that opposing discriminatory laws against women (which target working class women in particular, although--i guess unsurprisingly--the enormous class component of this issue seems to fly right over some peoples' heads) means the subordination of The, implicitly male, Proletariat to "female nationalism".... ?

Also, dismissing the issue of bodily autonomy as some liberal abstraction in this case seems to completely miss the fact that the denial of female bodily autonomy is a pretty universal feature of the oppression of women.

At any rate, maybe you could point out where opposing restrictions on abortion has derailed the class struggle or led workers to slaughter each other.

P.S. sorry for the **** post, on my way out the door



I think the trouble arises because women can be bourgeois too, and the bourgeois have lots of social power so they create a lot of "struggles" to fight for that are very cross-class related struggles. So no, you won't see us derailing the working class struggle to support a woman's right to become CEO of a company, but yes you will see us fighting for women to have free access to safe abortions. Both of these are considered, by liberal standards, to be part of the feminist struggle, but we really only care about fighting for one of them.
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