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 Post subject: Information Warfare
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 12:43 am 
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As an individual going into information security(as a job/career) and interested in related fields, I'm wondering what leftists are doing to further the class struggle online. Specifically I'm talking about the war of information. While I think a proper Marxist that knows what they are talking about can easily win most academic debates, the spread of leftist ideology seems to be lacking. The internet, particularly American sites as those are the ones most English speakers visit, seem to be dominated by liberal, libertarian, and conspiracy theorist viewpoints. I feel that more can be done.

I'm also interested in perhaps forming/joining some kind of group centered around the spread of information. I've spent most of my life online promoting socialist ideology when the opportunity comes about, but it seems that most people do not understand what socialism/communism/Marxism/Anarchism actually is. When made aware of what these words/positions actually represent the arguments seem to quickly end and the person I'm discussing/arguing/debating with just states they disagree with nothing else to say. I feel if more people were made aware of the alternatives to capitalist class dictatorship that the class struggle would be strengthened.

The world has changed greatly due to the internet and I think we are already losing the war of information on many fronts. While the exposure of war crimes and various other misdeeds by capitalists is beneficial, people's frustration seems to be fed into the movements of competing bourgeois factions at best. At worst they help fuel the Democratic party which has emerged as the most tech savvy of the two American parties.

tldr I'm wondering what is being done in the information war by leftist and what more can be done.


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 Post subject: Re: Information Warfare
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:08 am 
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I think this is just a variation of attempting to spread class consciousness, and as such is pretty trivial.

Of course we're losing the "war of information," this site is run by some college kid who rues having to pay the 15 bucks a year to renew the domain name, the bourgeois are.... the bourgeois, they run multi-million dollar network cable channels and crap.

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 Post subject: Re: Information Warfare
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:18 am 
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Tablo wrote:
I feel if more people were made aware of the alternatives to capitalist class dictatorship that the class struggle would be strengthened.

Could it not be argued that, on the contrary, a stronger class struggle allows people to see alternatives to capitalist class dictatorship? When you live in a world utterly permeated by capital, where the domination of the ruling class seems so absolute, so natural and so ingrained that it's difficult to even perceive it as class domination, bookish malcontents prattling on about "free access" (i.e. us) are going to seem just as fantastic as any goldbug, primmie or techno-utopian. Only when that domination is ruptured, when the reproduction of the capitalist social relation is ruptured, revealed to be a product of human action rather than a fact of nature, is the possibility of its absence and thus of alternative human relations going to seem plausible.
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 Post subject: Re: Information Warfare
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:48 am 
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The information warfare will be won by the production of a series of increasingly convoluted piano sonatas with titles like 'Marx was right, fuckers', 'Marxism owns all of your ideologies', 'Engels was a pretty decent guy too' and 'Still not givin up on the titles declaring allegiance to Marx'. Just you wait.

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 Post subject: Re: Information Warfare
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 3:42 pm 
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Broletariat wrote:
I think this is just a variation of attempting to spread class consciousness, and as such is pretty trivial.

Of course we're losing the "war of information," this site is run by some college kid who rues having to pay the 15 bucks a year to renew the domain name, the bourgeois are.... the bourgeois, they run multi-million dollar network cable channels and crap.

Well, I wasn't thinking of this site as a part of the information war, but I guess it is. I don't think money is as big an issue when it comes to the spread of information online. I've seen small groups of people effectively destroy large online communities. It is more a matter of having the tools, patience, and a well thought out plan.

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Tablo wrote:
I feel if more people were made aware of the alternatives to capitalist class dictatorship that the class struggle would be strengthened.

Could it not be argued that, on the contrary, a stronger class struggle allows people to see alternatives to capitalist class dictatorship? When you live in a world utterly permeated by capital, where the domination of the ruling class seems so absolute, so natural and so ingrained that it's difficult to even perceive it as class domination, bookish malcontents prattling on about "free access" (i.e. us) are going to seem just as fantastic as any goldbug, primmie or techno-utopian. Only when that domination is ruptured, when the reproduction of the capitalist social relation is ruptured, revealed to be a product of human action rather than a fact of nature, is the possibility of its absence and thus of alternative human relations going to seem plausible.

You're right. I'm just scared about where I see the world going and I feel I should be doing something to make sure it doesn't go in the wrong direction.

Really I don't even know how this kind of fight could be fought or what specific targets it would ideally be directed at. If nothing else it would be a fun way for me to waste time online.


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 Post subject: Re: Information Warfare
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 6:11 pm 
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I don't think it is that bleak i.e check out the resent Epic Rap Battles of History (popular Internet series)



We have Lenin denouncing Stalin for stopping the revolution (this is against bourgeois propaganda that Lenin=Stalin) in a popular video not trying to say anything political but aiming to entertain people on the Internet. Also the major media capitalists for a decade now have been in a losing fight against the Internet as broadcast television slides into irrelevancy as more people turn to the Internet that allows for a fraction of the production&distribution costs meaning capitalists are losing the means to deny independent producers from having access to the masses.

It gets better with games like Sweatshop and Molleindustria that actually criticizes the political economy.


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 Post subject: Re: Information Warfare
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 7:23 pm 
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Psy wrote:
I don't think it is that bleak i.e check out the resent Epic Rap Battles of History (popular Internet series)



We have Lenin denouncing Stalin for stopping the revolution (this is against bourgeois propaganda that Lenin=Stalin) in a popular video not trying to say anything political but aiming to entertain people on the Internet. Also the major media capitalists for a decade now have been in a losing fight against the Internet as broadcast television slides into irrelevancy as more people turn to the Internet that allows for a fraction of the production&distribution costs meaning capitalists are losing the means to deny independent producers from having access to the masses.

It gets better with games like Sweatshop and Molleindustria that actually criticizes the political economy.



But again, I think it's worthwhile to grasp tightly to materialism and remember that the spread of ideas is a reflection, a reflection mind you, of material circumstances, NOT that the opposite will be the case.

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 Post subject: Re: Information Warfare
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Broletariat wrote:
But again, I think it's worthwhile to grasp tightly to materialism and remember that the spread of ideas is a reflection, a reflection mind you, of material circumstances, NOT that the opposite will be the case.


Yet the spread of idea allows us to work with data far beyond our personal experience thus why it is important for the ideas of class conscious workers to be a significant part of collective human knowledge so workers are exposed to these ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: Information Warfare
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 10:55 pm 
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Psy wrote:
Broletariat wrote:
But again, I think it's worthwhile to grasp tightly to materialism and remember that the spread of ideas is a reflection, a reflection mind you, of material circumstances, NOT that the opposite will be the case.


Yet the spread of idea allows us to work with data far beyond our personal experience thus why it is important for the ideas of class conscious workers to be a significant part of collective human knowledge so workers are exposed to these ideas.


They already are, you can head to the MIA or here or wherever and find marxist ideas and such archived.

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 Post subject: Re: Information Warfare
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2013 2:30 am 
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Psy wrote:
I don't think it is that bleak i.e check out the resent Epic Rap Battles of History (popular Internet series)

We have Lenin denouncing Stalin for stopping the revolution (this is against bourgeois propaganda that Lenin=Stalin) in a popular video not trying to say anything political but aiming to entertain people on the Internet. Also the major media capitalists for a decade now have been in a losing fight against the Internet as broadcast television slides into irrelevancy as more people turn to the Internet that allows for a fraction of the production&distribution costs meaning capitalists are losing the means to deny independent producers from having access to the masses.

It gets better with games like Sweatshop and Molleindustria that actually criticizes the political economy.

Well, I tend to look at things from a more pessimistic view. While I receive brief pleasure from videos like this presenting a more accurate view of history I spend a much grater deal of time getting bombarded by ahistorical viewpoints. I wouldn't say I'm especially in-touch with the feelings of people I do waste a great deal of time discussing and debating politics with people online. I definitely feel there has been a big explosion of class consciousness online since 2008, rival bourgeois factions still maintain far more hold over the minds of people. As the global economy goes into greater decline we will see more people aligning with workers interests, but I'm afraid note enough is being done.

Broletariat wrote:
Psy wrote:
Broletariat wrote:
But again, I think it's worthwhile to grasp tightly to materialism and remember that the spread of ideas is a reflection, a reflection mind you, of material circumstances, NOT that the opposite will be the case.


Yet the spread of idea allows us to work with data far beyond our personal experience thus why it is important for the ideas of class conscious workers to be a significant part of collective human knowledge so workers are exposed to these ideas.


They already are, you can head to the MIA or here or wherever and find marxist ideas and such archived.

The information is available, but it is not receiving exposure. The biggest part of the information war is the flow of information. Most information is easily accessible if sought out. If I so desired I could provide a wide variety of info regarding drug/weapon manufacturing. This stuff is easily available if sought out. That does not mean most people are aware or interested in the subject.

While Marx is a materialist I don't think he ruled out the power of ideas/information. He never claimed socialism to be inevitable. I think, personally, this war may come down to the spread of information. Sure unrest will be created from the internal contradictions of capitalism, but what will be the result? It won't automatically mean everyone organizes for socialism. With the growth of technology there is both the increasing power of people to organize and spread information as well as the increasing power of government entities to control/monitor individuals. Who would argue for democracy or socialism if the very ideas do not exist? We have already seen the redefining of terms such as anarchism, socialism, communism, and Marxism. Ask any person what any of those terms mean and in most cases they will either have no clue or provide a completely inaccurate definition(inaccurate in our usage of the terms).

I don't want to get into any of the more scifi topics related to this, but we are really heading towards a scifi dystopic future. The left needs to better adjust. The internet WILL be the most important front in this battle. Maybe not at this moment, but in the very near future. Science fiction is becoming reality and soon almost all our communication and human interaction will be through the web. Even if my concerns are somewhat paranoid or otherwise ridiculous, I don't see what is wrong with wanting to further class conscious ideology. If no one was actively spreading such viewpoints do you really think people would come to the logical conclusions of Marx? Most people are not particularly intelligent or critical. Information warfare is not just the spread of ideas, but also the attack on opposing viewpoints. I won't go into that at the moment, but be aware that is another part of this discussion.


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