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 Post subject: Creep, I challenge you...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:35 am 
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to go to the Theory sub and kick our asses about why Stalin was allegedly so super cool.

If you can genuinely convince me or someone else, I'll sell my massive library of books on marxist theory I have only partially read, if at all (because some suck ***, Mandel and Kautksy on marxian theory aren't my thing I found out).


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 Post subject: Re: Creep, I challenge you...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:40 am 
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I don't think I've ever said that Stalin was “super cool”, so what is there to debate?

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 Post subject: Re: Creep, I challenge you...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:43 pm 
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Creep wrote:
I don't think I've ever said that Stalin was “super cool”, so what is there to debate?


I think he means prove to us that Stalin isn't "the grave digger of the revolution"


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 Post subject: Re: Creep, I challenge you...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:08 pm 
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[quote="Welshy"][quote="Creep"]I don't think I've ever said that Stalin was “super cool”, so what is there to debate?


I think he means prove to us that Stalin isn't "the grave digger of the revolution"

Let's not look at whether or not I think he is, but just how stupid that argument is to begin with.
If we follow the “gravedigger”-line, you say that if Stalin didn't get power everything would've been fine. The purges and everything else just came to be by Stalin's paranoia.
It wasn't the material conditions but Stalin being a **** that dug the grave of the revolution.

Instead of looking at the material conditions that “shaped” people like Stalin, the “gravedigger”-line adheres some sort of reverse Great Man Theory, Bad Man Theory so to speak.
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 Post subject: Re: Creep, I challenge you...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:24 pm 
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[quote="Creep"]
Let's not look at whether or not I think he is, but just how stupid that argument is to begin with.
If we follow the “gravedigger”-line, you say that if Stalin didn't get power everything would've been fine. The purges and everything else just came to be by Stalin's paranoia.
It wasn't the material conditions but Stalin being a **** that dug the grave of the revolution.

Instead of looking at the material conditions that “shaped” people like Stalin, the “gravedigger”-line adheres some sort of reverse Great Man Theory, Bad Man Theory so to speak.


Yeah that's kinda the common sense take on the Revolution, that it wasn't some Russian Super Mario who killed the whole thing.

However that is not an explanation of why you think Marxism-Leninism is the way to go (which is what this is actually about and not whether it was Stalin or anything else that dug the graves). As far as I'm aware, you identify as an ML and therefore there must be good reasons why you're an ML and not something else.

Since I don't think you're some stereotype high school tankie I am hoping you can articulate yourself on that. That's why it's a challenge, if I assumed otherwise I wouldn't concern myself with it any further. I am genuinely interested.

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 Post subject: Re: Creep, I challenge you...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:35 pm 
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[quote="Railyon"][quote="Creep"]
Let's not look at whether or not I think he is, but just how stupid that argument is to begin with.
If we follow the “gravedigger”-line, you say that if Stalin didn't get power everything would've been fine. The purges and everything else just came to be by Stalin's paranoia.
It wasn't the material conditions but Stalin being a **** that dug the grave of the revolution.

Instead of looking at the material conditions that “shaped” people like Stalin, the “gravedigger”-line adheres some sort of reverse Great Man Theory, Bad Man Theory so to speak.


Yeah that's kinda the common sense take on the Revolution, that it wasn't some Russian Super Mario who killed the whole thing. If I, as Welshy said, have to explain why I don't think he dug the grave of the revolution, he already has the view that Stalin was.

However that is not an explanation of why you think Marxism-Leninism is the way to go. As far as I'm aware, you identify as an ML and therefore there must be good reasons why you're an ML and not something else.

Since I don't think you're some stereotype high school tankie I am hoping you can articulate yourself on that. That's why it's a challenge, if I assumed otherwise I wouldn't concern myself with it any further. I am genuinely interested.

If we have to believe Welshy it was some Russian Super Mario who killed the whole thing.

You asked me to defend why Stalin was “super cool”, not why I'm an ML.
You say I'm not some “stereotype high school tankie”, but the OP is asking me to defend Stalin.

I am an ML because I agree, for the most part, with the theory of Marx, Engels, Lenin and, to some extent, Stalin.
That doesn't mean I limit myself to those four, which is one of the reasons I am on this forum. Although I don't post much political stuff, I do read a lot of the posts, and sometimes I agree and sometimes I don't.

The reason why I won't debate why Stalin was “super cool”, is because I think from the start you have an attitude of not wanting to even consider anything I say, nobody is as deaf as he that doesn't want to listen.
You don't want to know what I have to say, you want to have a go.
You say you'd sell your Marxist library if I can convince anyone, obviously you won't.
From the start you hold the idea that this “stalinist” can't win any debate.
That's why I won't debate you anytime soon.
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 Post subject: Re: Creep, I challenge you...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:59 pm 
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Creep, you break my heart...

。゚(゚ノД`゚)゚。

On the other hand it takes quite a lot to adhere to an ideology one agrees with 'to some extent'.

If you knew me better you'd also know that behind my wall of hard-assedness lies a big question mark (soft nut in a hard shell kinda deal). I am actually curious about what Marxism-Leninism has to offer (especially at this day and age after the end of the Cold War) but the Stalinist madness at Revleft left me jaded.

I just want to talk to a tankie with a brain... (;へ:)


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 Post subject: Re: Creep, I challenge you...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:18 pm 
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Railyon wrote:
Creep, you break my heart...

。゚(゚ノД`゚)゚。

On the other hand it takes quite a lot to adhere to an ideology one agrees with 'to some extent'.

If you knew me better you'd also know that behind my wall of hard-assedness lies a big question mark (soft nut in a hard shell kinda deal). I am actually curious about what Marxism-Leninism has to offer (especially at this day and age after the end of the Cold War) but the Stalinist madness at Revleft left me jaded.

I just want to talk to a tankie with a brain... (;へ:)


Asking someone in a PM might be a better aproach then “challenging” someone.
These are not the middle ages, we can have a normal discussion instead of having a fight for the girl.


With the “to an extent”-part I meant to say that I don't uncritically take everything those four, but specifically Stalin as he is the most debated, but also see flaws in them.

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 Post subject: Re: Creep, I challenge you...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:09 pm 
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I only said "grave digger of the revolution" because that is what bordiga called him in a speech to Comintern (I believe). I wasn't being entirely serious, this is off topic, however that doesn't change the fact that many ML's including your beloved Hoxha treat Stalin as this great man to be upholded against "counter-revolution". My request from you is defend the claim that ML the soviet union was socialist under Stalin and that steps taken by the Soviet government were steps in strengthening/building socialism.


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 Post subject: Re: Creep, I challenge you...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:12 pm 
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The "Grave digger of the revolution" comment is usually ripped out of context, so lets give it some.

Bordiga saw the revolution as fundamentally an internationalist event, for him the greatest high-water mark of the Russian revolution was its catalyzing of a Communist International--a world party capable of preserving the Marxist program for world communist revolution the last vestige of the workers' revolution was thus destroyed by Stalin when he converted it into an apparatus for Russian nationalist foreign policy

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