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 Post subject: Boeing
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:14 pm 
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Bad news: Boeing workers in SC reject IAM representation:

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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/15/business/boeing-union-south-carolina.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:19 am 
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To me this is nothing to get my panties in a bunch over. It's not a sign of faith in capitalism as a system. It's just a bunch of people acting in their atomized individual interest, much in the same way the class operates everywhere, everyday. Don't get my started on the AFL-CIO ahah.

For starters, I completely challenge the whole "look how dumb these workers are for not unionizing in a closed shop" tone that the NY Times gives us in the article Sartesian links to. F--- the NY Times while I'm on them.

There are two other struggles they mention. I happen to be intimately familiar with one of the struggles. About two-three years after the workers at that VW plant voted against the union, some of them decided VW was full of crap and went ahead and unionized anyway. The articles fails to mention this outcome.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/busi ... ts/411463/
https://www.wsj.com/articles/uaw-wins-v ... 1449283820

So I think these things are nuanced and unless you're directly involved in a specific struggle, it doesn't benefit anyone to draw wholesale conclusions about the international working class' combativity levels from articles on the Internet.

Plus people fight back everyday. Check out the news section over at dialectical-delinquents.com


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:15 pm 
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This trope, about thinking workers are "dumb," is just bourgeois ********, akin, but from the other side of the mirror, to the bourgeoisie commandeering of the word "revolution" by Reagan, and Trump etc. etc. They are not revolutionaries, and recognizing that the defeat of unions has been a)part and parcel of the bourgeoisie's strategy since 1974-5 and b)integral to the overall lowering of real wages since 1970, does not mean anyone thinks workers are "dumb."

So do us a favor Dankston, and spare us the smear approach: "Oh you link to a NYT article. You must think workers are stupid because the NYT thinks workers are stupid."

If I were the unkind sort, I'd say you have your head up your ***. Fortunately, I'm not the unkind sort.

Here's the thing: Workers in unionized plants generally receive higher wages, have more extensive benefits, have greater protections against arbitrary discipline/dismissal, have greater control of work rules, than workers in non-unionized plants.

Doesn't mean unions are adequate to the tasks of revolution; doesn't mean that union officials don't, in most instances, seek and agree to less than the working class requires to expand its strength-- DOES mean that the attack on, and the defeat of unions, is a marker, an index to the general attack on workers, and the fact that workers' organizations have been unable to "turn the tide."

Nobody here is endorsing the NYT. That's never been an issue. What is an issue is that you claim to "welcome the defeat" of unions. That's a big issue. That's nothing but the shop-floor version of "Nach Hitler, uns." Doesn't work that way. Nach Hitler, you, anarchist-communists don't stand a fucking chance.
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 Post subject: Re: Boeing
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Quote:
Doesn't mean unions are adequate to the tasks of revolution; doesn't mean that union officials don't, in most instances, seek and agree to less than the working class requires to expand its strength-- DOES mean that the attack on, and the defeat of unions, is a marker, an index to the general attack on workers, and the fact that workers' organizations have been unable to "turn the tide."


Well, that marker is at least 40 years old. In fact, taking your "marker" thing way to far, the sea level rise has risen past it. Who today says, "I'm a worker"? No one. And it's not the NYT. It's the AFL-CIO. This is great news.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:20 pm 
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This isn't about "nostalgia." Nobody is looking wistfully backwards to a "golden age" of the unions, as if such a golden age ever existed, or could exist without feeding directly into the conditions we confront today. But we have to recognize a defeat as a defeat. And the rejection of the IAM by Boeing workers in SC is a defeat.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:11 am 
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You know American strikes bottomed out in 2011 to the lowest levels recorded since 1975, something like -2,000% or more. So yes, you are talking about reanimation. Any time workers reject a union, and say, go on a wildcat strike or something else--- I for one am happy.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:29 am 
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Dankston wrote:
You know American strikes bottomed out in 2011 to the lowest levels recorded since 1975, something like -2,000% or more. So yes, you are talking about reanimation. Any time workers reject a union, and say, go on a wildcat strike or something else--- I for one am happy.


The decline in strike-days pretty much follows along with the decline in the unionized work force; and no it is not that workers are rejecting unions and wildcatting.

You're happy that capital flight, decertification attacks, and the power of the bourgeois state have all converged to drive down union representaton...and wages?

Sick sense of humor, Dankston; real sick.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:40 am 
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Quote:
no it is not that workers are rejecting unions and wildcatting


https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/09/the- ... ganizable/
http://www.labornotes.org/blogs/2014/10 ... trike-wave
http://www.timesunion.com/business/tech ... 937501.php
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/0 ... m-j08.html
http://en.internationalism.org/wr/337/b ... sh-strikes
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.14213/i ... b_contents
http://www.a-revolt.org/StoryLine/2016/ ... art-china/
http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/wildca ... ism-wanes/
https://libcom.org/history/long-lost-wi ... 960s-1990s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Rev ... n_Movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freightliner_Trucks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffboat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Toro ... cat_strike
dialectical-delinquents.com/news-of-opposition-5/may-2015/
http://dialectical-delinquents.com/news ... pril-2014/
http://dialectical-delinquents.com/news ... mber-2016/
http://dialectical-delinquents.com/news ... arch-2015/
http://dialectical-delinquents.com/news ... arch-2014/
http://dialectical-delinquents.com/news ... ober-2014/
http://dialectical-delinquents.com/arti ... emergency/
http://dialectical-delinquents.com/arti ... rdinadora/

Should I go on?

Quote:
You're happy that capital flight, decertification attacks, and the power of the bourgeois state have all converged to drive down union representaton...and wages?


No. But that's a nice set of scarecrows you've propped up as a counter-argument. You know unions are dead. It's not exactly news. Just say it and perhaps we'll get somewhere. I'm trying to learn and discuss. You're just proselytizing, comrade Sartesian.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:45 am 
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Right, lost time due to strikes of all sorts are at their lowest in 40 years, but somehow there is a wave of wildcat strikes that makes you "happy."

I'm not proselytizing for anything. You, however, are ignoring the contradiction at the very heart of your "happiness."

You also need to be a bit more consistent, as in if you're talking about strike activity in the United States-- like strikes in the US were at their lowest level since 1975, don't provide me with a list of links to wildcat strikes in China, Italy, the UK, etc. etc.

You think readers aren't going to notice?

In answer to your question, no, you should not go on because you're embarrassing yourself; unless of course that too makes you happy. The list you provide looks like it came right out of a google search for "wildcat strikes" and includes such gems as the history of DRUM, and union authorized strikes, repeated stories on workers in China staging wildcats at Wal-Mart, etc.etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:48 am 
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Artesian's law = As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of Artesian becoming a total ***** approaches 1


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