RedMarx

A Forum
It is currently Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:40 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]



Welcome


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Activism vs. Slacktivism: A False Dichotomy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:19 am 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:47 pm
Posts: 392
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 8 time
The point is that relative level of compensation (and with it relative quality of life) is irrelevant to class. A steelworker in the US, Canada, India, Russia, China and Brazil belong to the same class irrespective of the relative level of compensation they receive; how high or low their wages are is irrelevant.

On the contrary, no one here is asserting that the purpose of communist intervention in the class struggle is to simply fight for higher and higher wages until everyone has a standard of living equal to the highest paid workers within capitalist society, because that isn’t possible (if it were what would be the point of revolution?).

The working-class is the only revolutionary class precisely because its position in the production of capital, and its offensive (higher wages, shorter hours, improved working and living conditions) and defensive (defense of existing wages, hours and working and living conditions) struggles made inevitable by the impersonal forces of capital (which is perpetually seeking higher profits and creating the conditions for economic—and by extension social—crises) create the material possibility for the overthrow of the capitalist state and creation of a stateless, classless society.

From where exactly would ‘an alternative value or ethical system’ arise? What would be its basis?

The class struggle is a fact. Workers right now around the world are fighting precisely for higher wages, shorter hours and improved working and living conditions, so who determines what they really need and what they just want, how do they make that determination and why they should act differently according to this determination?

In addition, this being the centenary of October 1917 and all, the working-class and its revolutionary minorities have accumulated significant lived experience of acute struggle and revolution—a reminder that there are social and physical facts on which to base both theory and practice.

It sounds like you place a sort of moral value on poverty, as though impoverishment is the basis of such an ‘alternative value or ethical system’. If it were possible to opt-out of capitalism, or put into practice an ideal-on-paper blueprint for an egalitarian society, what is stopping it?


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 
 Post subject: Re: Activism vs. Slacktivism: A False Dichotomy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:27 am 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:41 pm
Posts: 617
Has thanked: 17 time
Have thanks: 25 time
Supporting wage increases is not the end, or an end, or even a means to an end. It is the manifestation of class solidarity in the struggle against the bourgeoisie. We "communists" neither begin nor end participation in class struggle with the outcome of a wage struggle. Communists, revolutionary socialists, whatever phrase you want to use, identify the emancipation of labor from the market, from the needs of exchange value, from profit and private property as the essential for the transformation of society from one organized to produce and perpetuate poverty, scarcity, deprivation, inequality to one that supports the development of all human beings.

The key, of course, is finding and identifying the modes, the methods, the organization of the transition, the "mediations" from a struggle for higher wages to that "higher" social organization. Those transitions are themselves developed in the workers own struggles for better wages, against lay-offs, etc.

That's the distinction between communists and social democrats.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Activism vs. Slacktivism: A False Dichotomy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 11:43 am 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:26 am
Posts: 11
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
"A steelworker in the US, Canada, India, Russia, China and Brazil belong to the same class irrespective of the relative level of compensation they receive; how high or low their wages are is irrelevant."

Where is the historical, material and scientific basis for claiming that all those people feel any solidarity with each other, and act coherently as a class? Do you really think a high end wage earner in the First World feels solidarity with a $2 a day labourer in a third-world setting?

"It sounds like you place a sort of moral value on poverty, as though impoverishment is the basis of such an ‘alternative value or ethical system’. If it were possible to opt-out of capitalism, or put into practice an ideal-on-paper blueprint for an egalitarian society, what is stopping it?"

I would have thought the second of those questions would be the one you need to answer. As for placing a moral value on poverty, yes I do. You also place a moral value on something, I assume. Justice? Fairness? Equality? If you had no moral compulsion somewhere you woudn't do anything whatsoever.


"The key, of course, is finding and identifying the modes, the methods, the organization of the transition, the "mediations" from a struggle for higher wages to that "higher" social organization."

Can you provide any solid historical examples that are anything other than a modification of capitalism?


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Activism vs. Slacktivism: A False Dichotomy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:43 pm 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:41 pm
Posts: 617
Has thanked: 17 time
Have thanks: 25 time
Quote:
Can you provide any solid historical examples that are anything other than a modification of capitalism?


Sure.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Activism vs. Slacktivism: A False Dichotomy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:52 pm 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:26 am
Posts: 11
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
Please do:-)


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Activism vs. Slacktivism: A False Dichotomy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:58 pm 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:41 pm
Posts: 617
Has thanked: 17 time
Have thanks: 25 time
I would be happy too, but you persistently ignore the questions asked of you, and about your assertions, and move on to some other iteration of a "gotcha" inquiry. That BTW is strictly a personal opinion. So... I don't have much interest in playing radical-whack-a-mole with you.

So if you're really interested, try answering all the issues raised about your assertions, and tell us what is your political orientation, and what it is you are proposing as some sort of "alternative" to marching in lock-step with capitalism, if you have one that is simultaneously not communist, not social democratic, not capitalist, and not class based.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Activism vs. Slacktivism: A False Dichotomy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:02 pm 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:26 am
Posts: 11
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
I see. Well, with that kind of unhelpful attitude it can hardly be surprising you don't get much traffic here. I retracted my point about Trump's working-class base, so I'm not sure what more you want. I'm posing questions because I am curious what Marxists have to offer, no other reason.

Seeing as you guys are the Marxists/Communists it's your imperative to put forward a realistic model and potential future. If you can't do that and refuse to offer examples, then there's not much point in continuing. But I get the feeling that's what you want anyway. Maybe you're too comfortable in your zone? Anyway, you got what you wanted.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Activism vs. Slacktivism: A False Dichotomy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:34 pm 
Offline
Comrade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:13 pm
Posts: 1760
Has thanked: 275 time
Have thanks: 572 time
KJ111 wrote:
If there isn't an alternative value or ethical system, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot going on that's distinguishable from Social Democracy.


I don't think that is fair given the very concrete examples I've given you.

If you're concerned with "values" ours are merely derived from sophism, merely the interests of the working class. As for ethics, ours are a practical set of ethics, that which furthers the material interest of the working class is good, and that which does not is bad. Which of course is to be contrasted to the ethics of the bourgeoisie, that which furthers the material interest of the bourgeoisie is good, and that which does not is bad. All morality and ethics have a class basis of course, there can be no genuinely human social morality until there is a human community.

_________________
Creation isn't beautiful. You inspire the ugliest things.


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Activism vs. Slacktivism: A False Dichotomy
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:34 pm 
Offline
Comrade

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:41 pm
Posts: 617
Has thanked: 17 time
Have thanks: 25 time
No, you didn't retract anything. You claimed faux ignorance. But... the issue isn't Trump. Mhou has explained the basis of class solidarity. Bro, and myself, have explained the difference between social democrats and communists, and then you move on to "please provide an example" where the necessary mediation has been realized." (not a quote, but substantively identical).

Ignoring the substantive issues: do you agree with how I explained the difference between social democrats and communists?

Do you agree that those mediations between immediate class demands and ultimate "class-for-itself" are developed by workers in the struggles against capital?

Yes or no will suffice... as a beginning.

More than willing to continue... but it's obvious that you are determined to find a reason, any reason, to not provide a concrete answer to a concrete question. Which is entirely on you. I want the concrete answer to the concrete question. Always.

If you don't care to provide an answer, guess who won't be surprised?

Oh... and PS: It is definitely NOT "our imperative" to provide some sort of alternate vision for the future. It is our imperative to oppose the current conditions; to oppose the rule of capital of the bourgeoisie; to advocate the rule of the proletariat and let the working class determine the alternative, which will necessarily do away with capital, and thus its designation as "the proletariat."


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Donate Now
Donate Now



Hosted by © 2017 FreeForums.org | Create a free forum | Powered by phpBB
About FreeForums | Legal | Advertise Here | Investors | Contact FreeForums.org
Report Violation

Design By Poker Bandits  

suspicion-preferred